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Poppy
Whether you declare or not is upto the individual. You have to weigh up the risks of non-declaration, and make your own mind up. Personally I think the penalties are too high to risk it,
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Ok I got the wrong part.
I just sent you a message including ,
, I have no doubt that Hacienda will in suspicious cases investigate how people may have assets which are far in excess of what they have previously declared or which they could not have acquired on their known salaries.
And if they can prove false declarations then I assume that would amount to fraud, just as it would under UK law. .
This message was last edited by johnzx on 04/02/2013.
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I posted that one because it confirms what had previously been discussed, and some of the points made earlier.
There are quite a lot of FAQ, and I spent half an hour trawling through them.
The other key points are that even if the assets (well deposits and property - not sure about the other) are in joint names, the total has to be reported, if it exceeds 50,000, whereas I think the general view would be that you could could split it 50/50.In other words, you could have €100,000 in joint names before it needed to be reported.
¿Existe obligación de presentar declaración cuando se comparte la titularidad sobre una cuenta bancaria abierta en el extranjero cuyo saldo a 31 de diciembre supere los 50.000 €, pero cuya titularidad corresponda a varias personas?
Existe obligación de informar sobre la cuenta bancaria cuando se supere este límite (y no concurra ninguna de las demás excepciones a la obligación de declarar) con independencia del número de titulares de la cuenta. Se informará de los saldos totales sin prorratear, indicando el porcentaje de participación.
Is there an obligation to file a return when shared ownership of a bank account abroad whose balance at December 31 exceed € 50,000, but whose ownership corresponds to several people?
There is an obligation to inform the bank account when it exceeds this limit (and not attend any of the other exceptions to the obligation to declare) regardless of the number of account holders. Be reported without apportion total balances, indicating the percentage of participation.
This message was last edited by KathysLad on 04/02/2013.
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I think with joint assets, where either could withdraw the total (say a bank account where either can withdraw) then it is reasonable to assume that each ‘owns’ the total assets. Unlike a property which is owned 50% in an escritura..
In general I don’t think anyone has cause for alarm, providing they have been making honest declarations on their annual tax returns. If they have failed to disclose income, or have failed to pay Patrimonio Tax by not disclosing the true value of their assets, then they may have a problem.
This message was last edited by johnzx on 04/02/2013.
This message was last edited by johnzx on 04/02/2013.
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"I think with joint assets, where either could withdraw the total (say a bank account where either can withdraw) then it is reasonable to assume that each ‘owns’ the total assets. Unlike a property which is owned 50% in an escritura..
I agree, but it says more or less the same thing about property in joint names
In general I don’t think anyone has cause for alarm, providing they have been making honest declarations on their annual tax returns. If they have failed to disclose income, or have failed to pay Patrimonio Tax by not disclosing the true value of their assets, then they may have a problem.
I agree, and of course my earlier point about UK inheritances is very relevant.
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how are these spanish speaking people that quite often dont speak english going to chase it up?
do as the spanish do
ignore it
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i coldnt stay away from you miserable whining whingers for some reason
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My first reply to this post, my first reply to any post in fact and having read through the thread, I would like to particularly thank johnzx, KathysLad and Camposol for their genuine efforts to try and understand how the financial products held by many of us should be correctly reported and whilst I find this particular law highly intrusive, as I reside here and I am tax resident here, I will comply with it.
For those who clearly plan to ignore it, I wish you well, the choice is yours.
Has anyone submitted a Modelo 720 yet ?, having spent a significant amount of time on the telephone obtaining BIC and IBAN numbers for the various bank accounts that I have - cash assets only spread for safety and future flexibility, gone are the days when you could 6.45% interest - I am wondering why the Hacienda wants this amount of detail.
I have written to my banks asking them to confirm that under no circumstances will they disclose any information about the accounts i hold with them without my prior written authority, the DATA protection act should be sufficient to cover this, however I have learnt over many years to assume nothing.
Does anyone know that if by completing the Modelo 720 you are giving the Hacienda automatic right to contact these financial institutions to confirm this information ?.
I do have money in the Isle of Man (Paraisos Fiscales), nothing flashy about that and I have always declared the interest on my Spanish Tax return. When taking out the fixed rate bonds I opted for ' disclosure of information ' so I am comfortable about that.
It strikes me that the Hacienda has thrown out a blanket requirement without necessarily understanding what complex financial products are out there - no reason why they should of course - not forgetting that this request will cover all non Spanish Nationals who are now tax resident in Spain, heavens knows what financial products they have in the USA, France, Italy or Germany etc.
I have life assurance policies on both myself and my wife, my idea of being responsible and trying to explain to my Gestoria - please forgive me for being technical - that my policy is a whole of life policy, written in trust under UK law, taken out many years before we ever came to Spain and that the trustees, my wife, my eldest daughter and my son in law are the legal owners of the plan and whilst my wife is the intended beneficiary, there are potential beneficairies in the form of our four children and should my wife and I be killed in a car crash, then the sum assured would be paid to the trustees for the benefit of the remaing beneficiares, bought nothing more than a blank look.
Sorry to be technical again, but to compound the issue, as the plan is unit linked the monthly contributions are invested in a unit linked life fund and once sufficient contributions have been made over the years to cover the life cover then the contributions switch to investment and as such the policy now has a significant cash in value. It will never be cashed in as that was never the purpose of the plan.
If I've bored some of you then I apologise, however Life Assurance policies are on the list that need reporting and I am trying to understand exactly what I have to report... someone must know.
This thread seems to have gone a bit quiet, so I hope there are people out there still seeking to understand.
Jimbo-G
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i found out at the weekend how hard its impacting the costa la luz.
sotogrande now has lots of empty houses because the expats with no ties have packed up and moved elsewhere.
if they have business intrests locally they are buying or renting houses in gibraltar and just using their big houses as weekend retreats.
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i coldnt stay away from you miserable whining whingers for some reason
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Jimbo, I am wondering why the Hacienda wants this amount of detail.
Spain has tried for many years to get their tax residents (originally almost 100% Nationals) to pay their correct taxes.
In 19977 they first introduced Patrimonio Tax, anticipated to be probably a one year tax, to ‘encourage’ disclose of income. It was a failure and thus still exits (albeit that it was suspended for a couple of years but reinstated for 2011 and 2012).
There have been several amnesties as incentives, also failures.
This new disclosure tax is the latest in the line to get to the facts on who should pay what. That is why it is so invasive and I assume the powers-that-be expect this law will finally do the job, or at least will penalise these who do not comply, showing maybe a larger income for the country than if they had complied.
So it’s unfair to blame the Government for the law, as it was brought in because of the tax dodgers, so lets blame them (nationals and others who are tax resident)
Jimbo
I have written to my banks asking them to confirm that under no circumstances will they disclose any information about the accounts i hold with them without my prior written authority,
The tax agencies of (probably the whole of Europe and maybe beyond, including previous tax havens) have been freely exchanging info for years, so writing to your banks was pointless, ‘stable doors etc’
Jimbo
……………… my idea of being responsible and trying to explain to my Gestoria - ,……………………………… bought nothing more than a blank look.
Unfortunately your Gestor does not really need to understand, as info contained in any tax declaration is the responsibility of the declarant, ‘you and me’ so we must get it right (fingers crossed)
On life insurance. I am sorry, but as I do not have any, I have not researched that area.
Recent info
A friend of mine, who will be out of the country for several months, has supplied details to his Gestor. Upon questioning my friend on what they required, I am now pretty certain that the Gestor knows considerably less about the required declaration that I do !
And she is /was the Gestor I was going to use !!!!
Mungry.
If the Sotogrande ones who have ‘fled’ were tax resident, I am so glad to hear that they have still have assets here (property) which hopefully ensue that the rest of us do not have to pick up their tax bills
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I've been speaking about this new law with quite a few Spaniards who have properties and other assets outside of Spain. None of them will be declaring these assets. One thing you can say about Spaniards is that they're pretty good at keeping their money away from the grubby hands of government. And who blames them when we've seen airports built that have never seen a flight; white elephants built in Valencia and politicians lining their pockets with black money. All using tax payers' money.
So it looks like it will be mainly the expats declaring their oversses assets. Good luck to those that do.
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This new law will do nothing to encourage expats to register in Spain for tax-in fact it has scared them off.All it will do is persecute those who try to get it right, and make an error.I think many will go back to the UK where tax is more straightforward.
Will someone in the Hacienda randomly select a returned form and go through it with a fine toothcomb, trying to find something to fine them on, while thousands of others which may be suspect get a cursory glance? I cannot imagine they will go through each and every return in minute detail;they haven't the man power to chase up all those who haven't even registered on the system.
I resent the vast amount of detail required;it can't be necessary., and surely these details could be fraudulently misused by someone eg in ID theft..Johnx-we employ tax accountants to deal with tax matters because we don't know how to do it ourselves, so how can WE know if they are doing it right? as long as we give accurate info we have the right to assume they will do the job efficiently within the law, but there is no way we know if they do. If it is our job to see that they have done it right, then we would have enough knowledge to do it ourselves, and save a lot of money in accountant's fees.
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Camposol
.Johnx-we employ tax accountants to deal with tax matters because we don't know how to do it ourselves, so how can WE know if they are doing it right? as long as we give accurate info we have the right to assume they will do the job efficiently within the law, but there is no way we know if they do. If it is our job to see that they have done it right, then we would have enough knowledge to do it ourselves, and save a lot of money in accountant's fees.
By all means disagreed with the law but please don't hold me responsible for it. I am only the messenger.
Will someone in the Hacienda randomly select a returned form
I suggest it is a bit pointless to ask anyone here what the Hacienda will do, we can only guess.
However, having spent my working life investigating criminal allegations, I would suspect that they will look at the `likely suspects'.
I understand there may be somewhere in the region of 4 milliion forms submitted, so I really do not think, or guess, that any of us who have made honest ( even may be only our incompetent best) tax returns, or even those who were a little ‘economical with the truth’ will have anything to worry about. But don't hold me to blame if that is wrong.
It has recently come to light that former PP treasurer, Luis Baracenas, at one time had 38 million euros in a Swiss bank account. I suspect people like that will be at that top of the list for investigation, not the average ex-pat.
This message was last edited by johnzx on 27/02/2013.
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It all sounds like a nightmare for both accountant and client.
Has anyone actually done their assets form yet?
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Campo
Has anyone done it
I did say:-
A friend of mine, who will be out of the country for several months, has supplied details to his Gestor. He signed something but did not know what it was.. Upon questioning my friend on what they required, I am now pretty certain that the Gestor knows considerably less about the required declaration that I do !
And she is /was the Gestor I was going to use !!!!
My friend signed something, but did not know what it was i.e idf it was the actual return.
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the spanish dont care
they never have so the gestors wont care or know or know and just dont give a fig.
the expat accountant firms will be whipping up a lot to scare people so they can get some nice fees in.
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i coldnt stay away from you miserable whining whingers for some reason
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You can only complete the form online, if you want to do it yourself you have to go and get a code to enter from somewhere - Kathyslad did say where earlier on this thread
For this reason I would imagine most will use a Gestor
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then that opens up a new part of the equation
as soon as you go to a gestor to do it and declare your assets they will be on you like fleas on a stray dog trying to milk the money from you
_______________________
i coldnt stay away from you miserable whining whingers for some reason
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"A Spanish gestor/asesor will usually tell you what you can get away with not declaring. From what I've been told from speaking to various Spaniards - you declare just enough to Hacienda so they don't start asking questions." And there you have the reason why we now have all this other rubbish to deal with. As I think was said on an earlier thread, these new laws are really designed to capture those wealthy Spanish who have been doing exactly as you say. Unfortunately law abiding expats get caught in the crossfire.I'm sure that most, like me, came to Spain to enjoy their twilight years. They accept that they are subject to the tax laws in Spain, and most of them will have paid all the taxes they were supposed to in the UK, so why would they change now. There have always been rogues who try to avoid paying what they should, and they will just ignore the new laws anyway. Whether you choose to declare or not is your personal choice. However, I personally believe that people should make an informed choice, which is why these discussions have been ongoing since the end of last year. It never ceases to amaze me how often people post something like " I've owned a house in Spain for 5 years, and I heard I have to pay non-resident tax, is that right"
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and i bet it amazes you more when spanish people have been born and lived in spain for 50 years and they say
`taxes` no i dont bother with those
what has the government ever done for me
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i coldnt stay away from you miserable whining whingers for some reason
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