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Well, if there are 3 categories, and you agree that don't fall into the last 2 ( as I have said consistently) then there's only 1 conclusion. I can only reiterate what I said before, seek professional advice. I can't see any point in posting the same question. It's your responsibility to provide the information, and you have until the end of April to provide it.
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Actually, I think you're getting hung up on the wording (possibly the translation). Blevins actually refer to financial institutions, which is a better description. Having said that the actual law refers to bancario o crediticio.
This is the ECB definition of Monetary financial Institutions
"Monetary financial institutions" (MFIs) are resident credit institutions as defined in Community law, and other resident financial institutions whose business is to receive deposits and/or close substitutes for deposits from entities other than MFIs and, for their own account (at least in economic terms), to grant credits and/or make investments in securities. Central banks as well as money market funds are also classified as MFIs, which formally consist of:
Credit institutions defined as any institution falling under the definition contained in the Banking Co-ordination Directive 2009/110/EC of 16 September 2009, whereby credit institution shall mean (a) an undertaking whose business is to receive deposits or other repayable funds from the public and to grant credits for its own account; or (b) an electronic money institution within the meaning of Directives 2005/60/EC and 2006/48/EC on the taking up, pursuit and prudential supervision of the business of electronic money institutions.
I could post the definitions from the EU directives if you want, but essentially they just provide the detail of activities.
So, if you accept the term as "financial institutions", rather than just banks, then in the UK, they are regulated by the FSA. If you visit their website, then you will find they include, banks, insurance companies etc. so, the logical conclusion is that deposits fall into class 1
This message was last edited by KathysLad on 15/01/2013.
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has anyone seen yesterdays coastrider where it states
all assets over 50,000 euros will have to pay 52% tax.
can anyone explain this, surely that figure cannot be
correct.
also is it 50,000 euros per person.
_______________________
  
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RE the Coastrider report
I have spoken to Blevins Franks, they say the info is totally incorrect. There are no plans to impose any tax on assets.
(They also told me that the form 720, which will be the form for declaring the assets, is still only in draft form, and confirmed that the deadline has been extended to 30th Apiril)).
I have also spoke to Coastrider, they are looking into where they got the info.
FURTHER
I have just receieved this email from the newspaper
Hi John
Thanks for your email – the reporter is currently working on a clarification which we will be printing next week but in the meantime, will be placed on our website as soon as it is ready. I would appreciate its inclusion on the eyeonspain forum, I have copied Mireille on this email so she knows to send it to you.
Kind regards
Aoife
This is the article:-
This message was last edited by johnzx on 16/01/2013.
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hi johnzx,
thank you for your very quick and informative
reply to my post.
I will make sure I read the coastrider next week.
_______________________
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With this new asset reporting requirement The Hacienda is hardly going to encourage people thinking about living in Spain to do so, quite the reverse.I'm not talking about fraudsters here, but ordinary people who will burdened with yet another onerous law.
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This is the reply I have received from 'Coastrider' about the '52% tax'
I have not had time to read it thoroughly yet.
Hi John,
Thank you for your recent enquiry to The CoastRider. Further to the article on p10 of this week’s CoastRider and the questions and enquiries it has generated; we have asked the supplier of the information, Expat Pensions, for further clarification. We will put the following in next week’s edition:
Clarification on “New Spanish tax set to hit unprepared expats”
Last week The CoastRider ran a story entitled “New Spanish tax set to hit unprepared expats” based on information supplied by Expat Pensions, an FSA registered tax and pension specialist working with Brits living in Spain. The article has raised a number of questions from our readers which were passed on to the company for clarification.
In response Angela South, Managing Director, Expat Pensions said:
“What we are saying is that advice should be sought by anyone with over 50,000 euros in overseas assets, who pays their tax in Spain, so they do not fall foul of the new rules. There are a lot of people who don’t declare their savings outside of Spain. However, on reflection perhaps [the information] should have said ‘over 50,000 euros in increasing bands, can pay up to 52 percent tax and then be fined on top’.
“One report on this subject quoted the case of an expat living in Spain who was discovered to have €300,000 in an undeclared offshore account. This would have been taxed at the top rate of 52 percent, but the fine for having failed to declare this would be 150 percent of the 52 percent, meaning that he would not only lose all of his savings, but he would owe the tax authority an additional €90,000.
However, if someone has declared their assets, which can be done up to 31st March, the tax isn’t payable. If they are found not to have declared then it can be very costly.”
New Spanish overseas undeclared asset rules are now in force:
·Expats who are tax-resident in Spain must begin reporting to the tax authorities in Spain any overseas assets they hold worth more than 50,000 euros.
·The new rules came into effect on January 1, 2013.
·Non-Spanish residents with offshore holdings must provide details of their non-Spanish assets between January 1, and March 31, 2013.
·The new rules were only published at the end of October so many advisers and their clients have had little time to prepare.
Under the new rules, failure to declare any amount worth more than €50,000 in any single asset class, or to report on any offshore entities which name the individual in question as a beneficiary, would result in a combination of a tax and fine that could not only empty out the offshore account completely, but could leave the individual owing the Spanish tax authority - La Hacienda – even more.
For example, an expat living in Spain who was discovered to have €300,000 in an undeclared offshore account would see this nest egg taxed at the top rate of 52 percent. But the fine for having failed to declare this would be 150 percent of the 52 percent, meaning that he would not only lose all of his savings, but he would owe the tax authority an additional €90,000, according to Vince De Stefano, managing director of Totus, which specialises in looking after expats in Spain.
In addition to the name and address of the financial institution holding their accounts, Spanish taxpayers with offshore accounts will be asked for all their relevant account numbers; the dates that their accounts were opened, closed or changed in any way; their account balances as of 31st December; and the average account balance in all the relevant accounts in the final quarter of the year.
Individuals are considered resident in Spain for tax purposes if they spend more than 183 days in Spain in one calendar year (or live on a boat within 12 nautical miles of Spanish land during that time); if Spain is “the centre of [their] economic activities”; and/or if their spouse and/or their dependant minor children live there, regardless of how many days the individual in question actually spends in the country.
The new rules come into force just a month after a tax amnesty ended. Under that scheme, Spanish taxpayers with undeclared taxable assets were given the opportunity to declare them in return for having to pay no more than a flat 10% levy.
Expat Pensions’ Managing Director Angela South said: “The final details are yet to be published and we expect to see them in next few weeks. These assets must be declared in their next tax return, or you could face punitive levels of fines. Our core advice stands – you should consult your tax consultant and financial adviser to make sure you do not fall foul of these new rules.”
If anyone has any further questions, they should call Angela South on 0044 1789 490363, or email her on
Regards,
Mireille Toddington
Journalist
CoastRider - Your essential weekly read
Office: 966 70 10 60
Mobile: 637 456 781
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(or live on a boat within 12 nautical miles of Spanish land during that time);
Well that's another idea scuppered 
_______________________
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Well first of all I am very very pleased to have found this thread with such helpful information especially in this instance, KathysLad . JOhnzx has been very helpful on other threads and it's a pity there seems to be a bit of acrimony as both posters are very knowledgeable and useful to other members.
The 52% tax on assets was told to me by a friend and I dismissed it as absolute nonsense without any need to check - talk about "the law of diminishing assets" (poetic licence there) . It simply could not be correct but I was told it was in paper so had to be gospel. By the way I think their reply is not clear either and the damage has been done in that those ex pats who already don't comply with rules and regulations have another reason why the rest of shouldn't either.
Anyway getting back to the thread, I am in the position of attempting "residencia - except it's not as such any more" (having been here 4 months) and that is an entirely different thread, but when we do, we will have rental income from UK and some modest pensions. I already complete a UK tax return and my understanding was that I would have to declare UK rental income to UK but as I could utilise my UK tax allowance then I would pay no tax there anyway as the rental income is lower that the personal allowance.
However, I believed (and now have verification from thsi thread) that I would have to declare this on my Spanish tax return as well and as I have other pension income, I will likely pay tax on it in Spain. I am going to talk to a company called Danniells Fox who seem to be specialists in tax returns both Spain and UK but I like to be forearmed before I see them. I have always completed my own tax returns in UK and even in Spain have sorted out my own non resident tax returns correctly but to start the process of intergration to the Spanish system, I believe professional help would be a good idea.
We will probably each declare 50% rental income as the house is jointly owned, and we will opt to be taxed separately as when everything is added together our incomes are more or less the same.
I also believe I need to contact HMRC and complete a long form (S1 1976 Number 1919) for tax relief at source on pensions.
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Kathyslad-I was querying about which category bonds came into. I have been sent a form from a forum dealing with queries, which states that:
Category 1 is for property and rights over properties outside Spain
category 2 is for bank accounts outside Spain-nothing else
Category 3 is shares, loans, annuities, insurance products, all types of investment assets and products
This list is much clearer, and it is apparent that bonds fall into category 3
I got this list from Angela South, mentioned in on of the other posts.
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I also believe I need to contact HMRC and complete a long form (S1 1976 Number 1919) for tax relief at source on pensions
Yes, that 's the correct form. It's had various names, but the current one is Form Spain Individual - which is the title on the top. Couple of points about the form
- On page 1 , there's a section for the Hacienda to sign. Tthey won't normally do tis until you have submitted a tax return in Spain. Even then, some offices won't sign the form.
- Its much easier, to submit your first return, and then apply for a Certificate of Fiscal Residence - you can normally get one from September onwards and I think it takes about 2/3 weeks. I think you can now apply online on their website, but you might need a electronic ID.
- HMRC say you can just write to them with your details and send them the certificate, but I would recommend that you actually complete the form, so you don't miss any details, and send that with the certificate. It takes about 4 weeks to process your NR tax code and issue any refund you are due.
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Campasol wrote
Kathyslad-I was querying about which category bonds came into. I have been sent a form from a forum dealing with queries, which states that:
Category 1 is for property and rights over properties outside Spain
category 2 is for bank accounts outside Spain-nothing else
Category 3 is shares, loans, annuities, insurance products, all types of investment assets and products
This list is much clearer, and it is apparent that bonds fall into category 3
I haven't seen the form you refer to, so I can't comment on its validity or its content, but I assume its a list that an "advisor" has drawn up, as there has been nothing official issued yet, unless I've missed it, which is possible.
As far as the actual law is concerned it justs lists the different articles, it doesn't give them numbers, I think people do that just to differentiate.
As far as bonds are concerned, I think I said before that some bonds definitely fall into the category covering assets and products, but i'm not clear from the description you gave earlier in the thread, that these are the same thing. I can't comment any further unless you gave some more detail. For example I have a 3 year fixed rate bond with an english bank, and I have a certificate with the word bond printed upon it, but in my opinion it falls under category 2 (yr numbering). I thought from your post, you described something similar, but i may be wrong.
The only other point I would make is that, if putting this item into another category means you don't report something, you need to be very careful
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Still on the subject of bonds, examples of bonds from Barclays that fall into the different categories Category 2 http://www.barclays.co.uk/Savings/FlexibleBonds/18MonthFlexibleBondIssue8/P1242603891663?WT.mc_id=1378014456220565-&mpch=sem Category 3 http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/prices-and-markets/retail-bonds/company-summary.html?fourWayKey=XS0134886067ZZGBPUKCP
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Correct me if I am wrong:
If I have the following assets abroad I DO NOT needt to report anything:
euro 49000 in bank accounts
euro 49000 in shares
euro 49000 in gold bars
euro 49000 in real estate
euro 49000 in life insurance policies
is that correct?
Thanks for your answer
John
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Thus I some info I received this morning.
I have no idea if it is correct or otherwise. Its just for your info !
I understand Gestors have been told by Hacienda to send out this sort of notice to any resident with whom they deal. And that includes people who may not have “official “ residence, but who live here more than 183 days in any calendar year. The Gestors are also supposed to inform Hacienda if they know there is any irregularity in the declaration - or if some “non-resident” is actually living here. That’s also supposed to be the case with asset/fund managers of which there are many operating here and with portfolios that include assets held outside Spain. Gestors like lawyers here (unlike in other countries) won’t sign tax returns, letters etc. so you carry the responsibility for any of their errors, as your gestor states below.
Sample letter:
Dear Mr./Mrs. Resident
As you should know, in December 2012, a Law ( Royal Decree) has been passed stating that all RESIDENTS (individuals and companies) must now disclose the value as at 31.12.12 of all assets owned by them which are situated OUTSIDE OF SPAIN. The obligation also applies to any such assets SOLD DURING THE YEAR 2012.
The assets are split into 3 groups and it is only necessary to submit a declaration if the TOTAL in any one of the 3 asset groups is more than 50.000 Euros per PERSON.
In successive years, this declaration will only be necessary if the total within any of the groups increases by more than 20.000 Euros, or if the asset is sold.
The tax declaration will normally be due between 1st January and 31st March but in this first year, as the form has not yet been issued, the declaration should be submitted between 1st March and 30th April.
The assets are declared in 3 different groups as follows:
1) BANK and FINANCIAL ACCOUNTS even if they are non-interest bearing
Name and Address of bank or financial institution including Post Code
Account Number including IBAN and BIC
Balance as at 31.12.12 and average account balance over last quarter 2012
If the account was closed during 2012, the closing balance of the account and the date it was closed.
2) INVESTMENTS, ISAS , BONDS, TRUSTS, QROPS, ANNUITIES, LIFE INSURANCES. Please note, however, that Life Insurances with NO SURRENDER VALUE (i.e. only payable on your death) do NOT have to be declared. However, any life insurances etc. where you are named as BENEFICIARY will have to be declared.
Name and Address of investment company including Post Code
Date of Purchase
No. of shares and % of participation
Value at Purchase
Value at 31.12.12 and average balance over the last quarter 2012.
If the investment, policy, etc. was sold during the year 2012, we need the date and value of purchase and the date and value of the sale
3) PROPERTIES OWNED ABROAD including houses, land etc.
Address of property including Post Code stating whether Urban or Rustic
Date of Purchase
Value of Purchase
% of ownership
If the property was sold during the year 2012, we need the date and value of the purchase and the date and value of the sale
If, as mentioned earlier, the TOTAL value of your assets in any one of the above groups is more than 50.000 Euros, then we must declare ALL the assets in that group, even if individually they have a value of less than 50.000 Euros.
Once you have prepared the list of all the assets in the relevant groups with the required details, please bring this to our office so that we can submit the declaration for you. The Tax Office will then verify the information and, if they find it differs from the details they have on record, you will be notified and given 10 days to rectify or explain the difference. Please note, we need the above information for EACH RESIDENT PERSON separately.
Failure to make the above declaration will result in an immediate fine of 10.000 Euros + 5.000 Euros for each undeclared piece of information.
Please, therefore, ensure that you have ALL the details for each asset as listed above as the Tax Declaration cannot be submitted if any of the details are missing.
You may have to contact the financial institutions etc. to provide the information required but this should be made readily available to you.
Please note that (this gestor) will bear no responsibility for any information which is disclosed incorrectly or omitted by you.
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Banks-what is the IBAN and BIC? I have phoned my bank for the info, and written it down myself-is that acceptable?
What about ISAs-surely they come under financial accounts rather than the next group.
What about stocks and shares UISAs?presume that's investments.
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Sorry Camo, as I said
I have no idea if it is correct or otherwise. Its just for your info !
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From Google:-
What is IBAN, BIC and SWIFT?
IBAN stands for International Bank Account Number and is a number attached to all accounts in the EU countries plus Norway, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Iceland. However, the system is flexible enough to be applied globally. The IBAN is made up of a code that identifies the country the account belongs to, the account holder's bank and the account number itself.
The IBAN makes automatic processing of cross-border payments easier and enables the bank to check, immediately upon receipt, whether the account numbers are correct. This ensures a fast credit to the account. At the same time, you avoid fees for manual processing of transfers.
The bank assigns an IBAN to each of your accounts. You cannot automatically calculate an IBAN yourself, as each bank might have different methods of registering their account numbers in the IBAN. The IBAN appears on account statements and in the bank's online systems.
A BIC (Bank Identifier Code) or SWIFT code uniquely identifies a particular bank. The code is used when transferring money between banks, particularly for international wire transfers, and also for the exchange of other messages between banks.
The BIC is the same as the bank's SWIFT address and is made up of 8 or 11 characters.
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Is the BIC the same as the sort code. I don't bank online, and I haven't got a statement to hand, but are the IBAN and BIC easily identifiable
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From Google
The sort code, which is a six-digit number, is usually formatted as three pairs of numbers, for example 12-34-56. It identifies both the bank and the branch where the account is held. In some cases, the first digit of the sort code identifies the bank itself and in other cases the first 2 digits identify the bank. Although there is a strong correlation between BIC codes and sort codes, sort codes are not explicitly encoded into BIC codes (although they are encoded into IBANs).
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