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16 Sep 2008 12:00 AM by chindo Star rating. 52 forum posts Send private message

if any one needs a good solicitor to help them  send me private massage and i will give you my solicitors details . 


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28 Sep 2008 7:18 PM by steverichmond Star rating. 36 forum posts Send private message

Chindo

I assume that you are also buying on phase 2.

Given the insolvency of the developer and the fact that the bank guarantee runs out towards the  end of the year we are about to instruct a lawyer in Spain to act for us to make a claim under the bank guarantee so we would be interested to know your experience to date and also to receive details of the solicitor you mentioned.

Steve


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03 Oct 2008 11:04 AM by backandforth Star rating. 21 forum posts Send private message

Regarding bank guarantee:

Ours also runs out in December 2008. I pointed this out to my solicitor, and she informed me that the bank guarantee is effectively frozen until the court decision is made. This is my understanding, and I would be grateful if anyone can correct me.

I am not at all surprised that Masdevallia has applied for the Spanish version of chapter 11. No further sales and huge interest payments to CCM - it had to happen. I am not completely sure of our standing as creditors in the eyes of the law under these circumstances - we do not have title to our properties, there is only a promise to sell us the asset.

The following information was sent to me a while ago - I hope that Costa Luz Lawyers do not mind me posting this here:

Licence of First Occupation and Completion:

The fact of having the purchase deeds signed before a Notary in Spain means that your house “has been born” to the “legal world”. It is necessary a previous or simultaneous title which is the “New work declaration deed” over the land. The Notary deed will allow you to transmit the house. That is in the civil and registry level. The developer must also fulfill some requirements before the Public Administration ( i.e.- before the Local Council: planning obligations, reparation duties…) therefore, the Local Council won´t proceed to the granting of the First Occupation License (Licencia de Primera Ocupación) till these requirements are met. The lack of FOL can impede the owner to have the power supplies connected : water, electricity, telephone, gas… it can even imply an impediment to have the house as registered domicile in the Local Council “ Padrón” registry. The proper definition of the FOL is of a license by which it is checked that what it has been built is adjusted to the Project. The FOL verifies if the building can be assigned to its legal use, because it is located in a proper planning zone and it meets the basic safety and health conditions, it also confirm that the builder has fulfilled his commitments on urbanisation of the surrounding land. Regarding FOL and completion, Consumers specialists state:
1.- The seller who signs the public deeds of purchase without FOL ( First Occupation License) is in breach of contract even if the house has been physically handed over, because the ownership rights that he is trasmitting are not valid for the use of the house till the FOL is granted.
2.- The buyer can be opossed to the signing of the deeds till the FOL is granted if the completion date was fixed for anytime after the end of the work, and the seller cannot cancel the contract due to this negative of the buyer until he fulfills his contractual obligations ( by obtaining the FOL).
3.- The buyer can cancel the contract ( even after the signing of the deeds), with full devolution of amounts, interests and compensation of damages if after the completion date, either the deeds having been signed or not, the building does not have the FOL.
4.- If the buyer decides not to cancel the contract, he must not occupy the house, even when having being formally handed over, because that would involve an administative infringement and because he can be deprived of its use by the competent Administration.
Written by Maria de Castro Lawyer

Bank Guarantees for Spanish Off Plan Developments Know Your Rights!

The Aval Bancario (Bank Guarantee) or Insurance Contract were both established by a 1968 Law to protect buyers in off plan developments.
Article. 1. - The developer must guarantee the return of the deposited amounts plus 6% of annual interest, through an insurance contract or by bank guarantee, in circumstances where the construction doesn’t start or doesn’t finish in the agreed time. They also need to open a special bank account for your amounts (different from the general one of the developer) and have it expressly written in the contract.
Article. 2. - In those contracts where the parties agree on anticipated amounts the developer must expressly state: a) That the developer will give back to the buyer all the advanced amounts plus the 6%, in circumstances where the construction fails to start or end within the agreed deadline, or the certificate of habitation is not granted. b) Reference to the bank guarantee or insurance contract, this must indicate the name of the Bank or the Insurance Company. c) Specification of the Bank or financial institution and the account number where the buyer’s money is deposited. At the signing of the contract, the developer will give the buyer the document that contains the guarantee (the Aval or the Insurance Contract) and the document must have a reference to the amount that is anticipated. Article 3. – If the deadlines for starting or finishing the development are not met, the buyer can choose between cancelling the contract with the return of advanced amounts plus 6% annual rate, or to concede a time extension, which will be stated in an additional clause in the contract, specifying the new deadline with the date for finishing the construction and completion. The insurance contract or the bank guarantee together with the document that fully proves that the work has not been started or that the completion deadline has not been met nor complied with, will have executive power as it is stated in the Title XV of Book II of Civil Procedure Law, to demand from the insurance company or the bank, the amounts that the buyer is entitled to, without prejudice of any other given rights also applicable.
Written by Maria de Castro
Lawyer

Everyone has obviously gone their own way with regards to getting their contracts cancelled. Given that CCM is now €40m out of pocket over Nueva Ribera, I don't expect them to just roll over and hand back the deposits. I think it is about time that everyone gets in contact with each other, so that we can act as a group against the bank. Would anyone like to offer to start developing a list of contacts? I would imagine that there are a lot of very disgruntled owners in Phase 1 who would also like to get some legal redress.

All the best,

Backandforth.


This message was last edited by backandforth on 10/3/2008.

This message was last edited by backandforth on 10/3/2008.


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03 Oct 2008 12:54 PM by steverichmond Star rating. 36 forum posts Send private message

Backandforth

A most informative message!

We have just instructed the solicitors that Chindo recommended: Pedro Ortiz at GV & A.

They will seek to invoke the bank guarantee. Most of the people on this forum seem to have already begun this process.

I am willing to compile a list of apartment owners who wish or have started legal actions. If anyone wishes to contact me please do so.  I will also ask a spanish friend of mine to help me contact spanish buyers - there must be a similar spanish speaking forum of sorts somewhere.

Steve




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03 Oct 2008 1:51 PM by backandforth Star rating. 21 forum posts Send private message

Hi Steve,

Good of you to offer to get the list together.

I'll have to pm you with my email address as the system won't let me include a link, web or email address until I get to 10 posts!

I have a small list of people that I have been corresponding with.  I'll contact them and see if they are happy to be added to the "master" list.

I also have some more information somewhere on my hard drive regarding insolvency of developers.  I'll post it once I've found it!

Best regards,

Mike.




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03 Oct 2008 1:57 PM by backandforth Star rating. 21 forum posts Send private message

Found the article I was looking for.  Not sure of its provenance, but suspect Maria de Castro. Those of us with deposits should read the final few paragraphs.

WITHOUT
any intended insult to the text of the Old Testament, the sub-prime disaster in the US begat market jitters, market jitters begat the collapse of age old financial institutions, the institutional collapse begat the credit crunch and the credit crunch begat the withdrawal of project finance. Sprinkle lightly with a reduction in demand and an over supply and what do you have Spanish property developers falling off the perch, howling about liquidity issues and seeking creditor protection under the Spanish equivalent of Administrative Receivership (as in the UK) or Chapter 11 (in the US).
In the last month a company owning most of projects of the Grupo Jale, a major developer on the Costa del Sol, and Grupo Sanchez – equally big on the Costa del Sol - entered into Administrative Receivership and this week we heard that San Jose with projects in Murcia has sought similar protection.
Obviously in an already changed market, awash with fears for the security of hard earned money invested in Spanish property, this is not great news.
But where does this leave the property purchaser?
If you have already completed it is likely that your developer may not have sold his entire stock of properties at your new Urbanisation. This means that the developer will also become your neighbour, a member of your Community of Owners and be as responsible as you for their share – their quota - of community fees.
However, the effect of the appointment of an Administrative Receiver over the assets of the company will mean that your Community’s will be required to deal with the office the Administrative Receiver and no longer with the developer themselves. Any subsequent sales of properties at your Urbanisation will generate cash for the Administrative Receiver’s office. This will be used to pay out secured creditors – including the tax and social security offices – but it will also provide cash flow for the continuance of the company under the creditor protection. This means that the developer’s employees – for example - will continue to be paid whilst the company attempts to trade its way out of trouble.
As a consequence, it is likely to be necessary to call either an Extraordinary General Meeting or an Annual General Meeting in order to protect the Communities position in respect of the unpaid Community Fees. I am told that only after these have been voted upon at the EGM or AGM will it enable the Community to enforce the unpaid fees as a debt against any incoming purchaser and thereby collect the unpaid balance. This may be an unpleasant surprise for the incoming purchaser – who’s Abogado should have advised them on such matters and checked with the Secretary of the Community whether any such fees were outstanding. But the legal position appears to be only once the unpaid fees have been voted upon and passed into the Minutes of the Community that following a purchase will the incoming purchaser be obliged to assume responsibility for the unpaid fees. This should benefit the Community.
Alternatively, another potentially interesting scenario is starting to emerge – and we are seeking detailed legal advice on this point as I write. If like any other owner, the developer fails to pay their share of the community fees; will the remaining members of the community – probably a majority – be able to take legal action to recover the debt against the developer? Further should they be successful in obtaining judgment will the Community of Owners be able to obtain an “embargo” over the property to the extent of the Community Fee debt? As a consequence, will the Community then be able to progress to a “subasta” or auction sale of the defaulting owner’s property to realise the unpaid Community Fees? Will this create an interesting new market of distress stock – whereby willing purchasers can acquire finished property at a knock down price?
We believe that this may be relevant where the developer, as is usual, has established an individual company vehicle to develop and sell a particular development. If they have sought creditor protection for only a member of the group of companies – rather than the individual development company - then the moratorium which prevents creditors taking action against the group member but may not apply to the individual development company. Careful review by an appropriately qualified professional is required as group wide creditor protection may operate to prevent a challenge by the Community of Owners.
What if you have not yet completed your purchase but you have paid over your deposit on signing your Private Purchase Contract (PPC) plus – possibly - several stage payments?
Under the terms of the PPC that you have signed, you will usually be acquiring an option to purchase the property at completion. This is not a property right as such but a debt owed to you by the development company with whom you’ve signed your PPC. As in English law, there are different categories of creditors. These include: “Secured” creditors who have registered charges against the development company’s assets probably by way of mortgages or other loans – often manifested in an up to date Nota Simple of the property - the Spanish state tax and social security offices; “Favoured” creditors such as the company’s own employees and “Unsecured” creditors.
Until completion it is usual that a property purchaser will be an “unsecured” creditor of the developer. This means that your rights in respect of your cash as deposited with the developer will mean that you rank behind the “secured” and “favoured” creditors.
Spain has a developed and legally backed system of Bank Guarantees (Aval Bancario). The Law 57/68 establishes a system of bank guarantees - or insurance policies - to protect the amounts paid by the buyers in case of the developer’s failure to complete the development. The aim is to ensure that you do not lose your money should the property not be built for some reason. This is usually offered by the main funding bank which has provided the developer with their project finance.
In practice, bank guarantees may not always reach the require level of protection as envisaged by the law. In our experience they need to be studied very closely to ensure that they are valid, up to date and signed by all relevant parties. To give you added comfort, you should seek from your Abogado written assurance that they have hold original versions of up to date – amended to include your deposit funds and any subsequent stage payments - fully signed and original Bank Guarantees from the developer’s banker. 
Should you find yourselves in a position where your developer has announced that they are entering into a formal creditor protection arrangement or they have filed for, Administrative Receivership, voluntary liquidation or similar you should consider whether it’s appropriate to give your Abogado instructions to seek to call upon the bank’s Guarantee. Whilst it may be difficult in practice to invoke this guarantee – it will usually require the intervention of your Abogado and possibly formal court proceedings – which may prove costly – it should provide you with long stop protection in the event of the collapse of the developer that results in the property not being constructed or completed.
It is not the intention to overly simplify this process and for one reason or another it is likely that the bank providing the guarantee – given the current financial climate - may seek to delay honouring or even refuse to honour their guarantee - so ensuring that your Bank Guarantee arrangements are at all times in “apple pie” order is very sound advice.
If you developer does not appear to be in financial difficulties we’d recommend that you review your Bank Guarantee arrangements in any event. A difficulty often arises if a date of expiry of the Bank Guarantee is specified on its face. Such a date may be an “in any event” date meaning that the Bank Guarantee will expire whether or not the property is “legally” completed. You should check with your Abogado to ensure whether such a date is stated in your case and he/she should apply to have them renewed before they expire. It is usual that the developer and the bank will need to sign each Guarantee and any extension to it which in our experience may well not happen if the developer and their financier are in dispute over other liquidity issues.
I have been approached by some purchaser’s saying that their Abogados failed to advise them in relation to a Bank Guarantee. There may be one of two scenarios here. Firstly, the Bank Guarantee was issued in the usual way - as is required by the law - but for some reason the Abogado just didn’t give the purchaser a copy. In which case, a note to your Abogado’s office should reveal its whereabouts. Secondly – and of much more concern – is where either the Bank Guarantees has not issued for a variety of reasons. This may include that they were not requested by anyone including the purchaser’s Abogado, were not offered or that they were issued and have now expired. Whichever way fully independent professional advice should be sought as to your available remedies against your advisors and the Administrative Receiver – or similar.
Finally, and this sounds like total stupidity, if your property is pretty much completed – snagging done etc. - but lacks - for example - the final formal licences from the local Town Hall – particularly the License of First Occupation (LIFO) - but – and this is an enormous but – your developer is threatening to file for creditor protection, Administrative Receivership or similar, it may be worth considering – if you are in a position to do it – to complete on your property in any event. For obvious reasons, care and professional advice must be taken if you are considering upon such a strategy – it may well be a massive gamble – e.g. the LFO may never be granted - but the net result of such completion will mean that the property is registered in your name. Instead of a debt owed to you by the developer you will have a property asset with an enforceable title.

Hope that helps.

Regards,

backandforth.
 



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05 Oct 2008 11:36 AM by chindo Star rating. 52 forum posts Send private message

hi has anyone else recieved a letter about the administration of the developer


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05 Oct 2008 11:50 AM by backandforth Star rating. 21 forum posts Send private message

Yes, I am in correspondence with someone who has received the letter. It is in Spanish. We have not received ours as we moved house in April, and registered letters are not redirected. ATB Mike.


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06 Oct 2008 11:03 AM by backandforth Star rating. 21 forum posts Send private message

Managed to get hold of the letter from the administrators! I was reviewing the wording of the bank guarantee last night. One thing that jumped out at me was the fact that the guarantee is cancelled once the Licence of Occupation is issued by the town hall...at the moment there is not one in place, so there is still hope? The bank guarantee is supposed to protect the consumer in the event that the company goes into liquidation. Does the same apply when the company is still trading under administration? If anyone can get an answer from their solicitor regarding this, please post. Best regards, Mike.


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07 Oct 2008 10:44 AM by chindo Star rating. 52 forum posts Send private message

i spoke to my solicitor yesterday  he  has been in touch  with the banks solicitor who still refuse to pay back my deposit with out court action even though they are going against the legal status of the gaurantee .  so the only option is to sue them  . the bank may think we are to scared to go to court or our solicitors are not good enough to take on theirs. my law firm have given the bank every opportunity to return my money with out the need to go to court . 


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07 Oct 2008 11:25 AM by backandforth Star rating. 21 forum posts Send private message

No surprises there then!

FWIW, here is a translation of the Administrator's letter.  Apologies for any errors, and formatting.

Dear Sir,
 
In accordance to that set forth in article 21.4 of the Bankruptcy Law (22/2003 of 9th of July), we inform you that the Juzgado de lo Mercantil (Commerce Court) nº 1 of Málaga, in Voluntary Bankruptcy Proceeding Nº 689/2008, through judicial decree 0f 31 July 2008, has declared on voluntary bankruptcy the debtor COMPAÑÍA INMOBILIARIA MASDEVILLA, S.L. with Company Tax Code Nº B-81341984, which is under a judicial administration to perform all acts of administration and disposition of its assets, although all their operations are submitted to the intervention of those who endorse this paper, appointed bankruptcy administrators.
 
Likewise, we have to inform you that, in accordance with that established in the aforementioned article 21, section 5, you must inform to this Bankruptcy administration the loans that you hold against COMPAÑÍA INMOBILIARIA MASDEVILLA, S.L. as stipulated in article 85 of the Bankruptcy Law:
 
1.      You have one month, starting from the last of the publications of the declaration of bankruptcy agreed in the judicial decree of the Court to inform this bankruptcy administration of the existence of these loans that you hold against COMPAÑÍA INMOBILIARIA MASDEVILLA, S.L., as referred to 31 July 2008.
 
2.      The communication should be done in writing and it must meet the following requirements:
 
a) It must be in writing, at the Juzgado Decano addressed to the Juzgado de lo Mercantil (Commerce Court) of Málaga Nº 1, with the signature of the creditor, any third party interested on the loan or anyone who proves to have enough legal representation.
 
b) The name, address and other details of the Creditor must be included, as well as the following details regarding the loan:
 
·      Concept or title why the loan was taken.
·      Total amount of the loan at the date of the judicial decree bankruptcy (31/07/2008). In your case give the details of both principal and interest.
·      Dates of acquisition and expiry
·      Characteristics of the loan (according to articles 86 to 88 of the Bankruptcy Law 22/2004 July 9)
·      Legal description of the loan (according to articles 89 to 93 of the Bankruptcy Law), stating in your case, its dispute nature.
·      If a special privilege is invoked, you must state the assets or rights to which it affects, and in your case, the Registry Office Data.
 
c) The originals or certified copies of the title or the documents relative to the loan must be attached. You may ask for the return of the titles, documents or deeds, as long as there are enough statements authorised by the Secretary left in the records.
 
Nonetheless, when the originals of the titles or documents have been handed in or recorded in another legal or administrative procedure, these may include non certified copies of the same as long as the petition made to the Court or corresponding Body for the obtaining of statements or the devolution of the originals is justified.
 
d) Under no circumstances the information must be addressed to the legal address of the Bankruptcy Administration, it is compulsory to inform the Juzgado de lo Mercantil (Commerce Court) in the terms aforementioned in this document.
 
Finally, we must warn you that the handing the information of your loan, as aforementioned described, after the one-month deadline, may entail the classification of your loan as subordinated, loosing the nature that may correspond to it.
 
We look forward to hearing from you soon,
 
                         Vadal Setién Hernández                  Paloma Moreno Marin
 
                                              Bankruptcy Administration

So, the clock is ticking.

Best regards,

Mike.



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07 Oct 2008 12:25 PM by backandforth Star rating. 21 forum posts Send private message

Does anyone else think that it is worth making a complaint directly to the Bank of Spain?

As far as I am aware, they have very strict controls over the banks after all the crises they have experienced in the last 40 years or so.

I'm going to have a go - nothing to lose.

Regards,

Mike.


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07 Oct 2008 2:45 PM by steverichmond Star rating. 36 forum posts Send private message

Good idea.

We haven't yet formally asked for our money back but once they have refused our formal request we will make a complaint.

If in the meantime if you have found out how to complain: - addresses, proceedure etc please advise.

Steve




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07 Oct 2008 5:29 PM by backandforth Star rating. 21 forum posts Send private message

Hi Steve, All I have done to date is email the address given on the BOS website, asking for guidance regarding the complaints procedure. If I hear back, I will let you all know. Rgds, Mike.


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11 Oct 2008 1:03 PM by MarkC Star rating. 16 forum posts Send private message

Dear All Nueva Riberia Phase 2 Buyers

I have received the following info from my Spanish lawyer regarding legal proceedings which you may find useful. I have tailored the email for confidential reasons:

"We are sending this e-mail from SPANISH LAWYER to up date you of the legal situation at the complex  NUEVA RIBERA from the builder COMPAÑÍA INMOBILIARIA MASDEVALIA, SL.

 

The aim of this e-mail is to assess the voluntary insolvency proceedings which have been initiated by the company COMPAÑÍA INMOBILIARIA MASDEVALIA, SL in the Commercial Courts of Málaga.

 

Please, find attach a Legal Report about the meaning of the insolvency proceedings.

 

A key fact in this matter is that this insolvency proceeding are voluntary, since it has been initiated by COMPAÑÍA INMOBILIARIA MASDEVALIA, SL who has a petition to initiate insolvency proceeding.

 

The petition to initiate voluntary insolvency proceeding filed by the company COMPAÑÍA INMOBILIARIA MASDEVALIA, SL is being heard in Commercial Court Number 1 of Malaga. It has case number 689/2008.

 

At the same time, according to our file you currently have paid to the builder the amount of x EUROS. (We consider we can not include in the claim the cost of bank transfer or the solicitor fees).

 

According to our file, you have Bank Guarantees for amount of  €x and this means that only the first payment you have made so far is protected.  Since the builder was in breach of contract, you were able to get your money refunded for this payment.

 

As you know we asked for the execution of the Bank Guarantees delivered to other clients, but the bank (CAJA CASTILLA LA MANCHA) refused to do that.

 

Then, we will need the following documents to be able to proceed with the legal proceedings.

 

1.- Contract of purchase.

2.- All the invoices, receipts, bank tranfers and any document about the payments made to COMPAÑÍA INMOBILIARIA MASDEVALIA, SL

3.- All kind of comunications with COMPAÑÍA INMOBILIARIA MASDEVALIA, SL (letters, publicity, e-mails, etc..).

4. Power of Attorney for Litigation. 

 

As we have already the documents, now you should either instruct us:

 

1.- To appear in the insolvency proceedings on your behalf and to defend your interest in it.

 

2.- To appear in the insolvency proceedings on your behalf and to defend your interest in it and at the same time to take legal actions against CAJA CASTILLA LA MANCHA to force them to execute the Bank Guarantees and get your money back.

 

We are ready to start the proceedings, but in any case, we await for your instructions"

If anyone has bank guarantees then in my opinion you do not have much alternative but to start legal proceedings to try and get some funds back. I think that most people are aware that the bank guarantees expire on 31 DECEMBER 2008!

The bank of the developer will not repay the bank guarantee without a legal court action, which is illegal and cost us as buyers unnecessary legal costs. 

Therefore, I think the plan of action for all buyers is as follows:

1. File court action for Bank guarantees;
2. Report the bank for non repayment of bank guarantees without court action - to be confirmed from other posts
3. File court action of monies paid without bank guarantees or walk away.

I will look forward to other peoples comments, because like everyone else I don't want to continue throwing money down the drain in this current economic climate.

Regards

Mark




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11 Oct 2008 10:32 PM by zero Star rating. 15 forum posts Send private message





This message was last edited by zero on 10/14/2008.


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16 Oct 2008 12:43 PM by taraehb Star rating. 4 forum posts Send private message

I have only just discovered this forum.

We tried to claim on our bank guarantees back in July, applying directly to the bank, without success - or even acknowledgement of our letters.

We have now filed a claim (as suggested in posting 11 oct)  with the court through our lawyer.  The posting also suggests reporting the bank for non payment.  Does anyone know how to do this?  And where?

Please keep posting as we are also reluctant to pay massive legal fees if we aren't going to get anywhere.  We have paid 2000 euros so far to cover the costs of claiming and filing for court action against the bank.  Is that what others are paying?

Tara




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16 Oct 2008 12:50 PM by taraehb Star rating. 4 forum posts Send private message

I don't seem able to post private messages but please include us on the "master list" of appartment owners, especially if someone is thinking of co-ordinatng group action against the bank.  I can't include my e mail address until I've made 10 postings or something ridiculous!

Tara




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17 Oct 2008 1:55 PM by MarkC Star rating. 16 forum posts Send private message

Tara

In reply to your post we tried to claim against the bank guarantees when the building project was delayed after the revised contract completion date which was 31/12/06 (previously 30/6/06)!

We tried through One Properties, the developer and bank and neither were allowing for refunds to be made without court action. It has taken this far to date, the reassess our options, speak to various spanish lawyers in person to file legal court action. Because no repayments will be made without court action.

Therefore, as buyers we have no other option to go to court (or give your spanish lawyer power of atorney to act on our behalf) to try and reclaim monies paid to date.

You are correct the standard initial fee to start the process of court action is an initial fee of €1500-€2000 based upon my review of local spanish lawyers. However, the costs can significantly rise depending on how much monies you are looking to be refunded. Also, your spanish lawyer must make it clear that if you lose not only will you have to pay your spanish lawyer legal costs (which is based upon the monies you are looking to be refunded) but also the defendants (ie the developers). So overall we are taking a calculated risk by going to court.

But in my opinion and must be the opinion of every other Nueva Riberia owner is that we are the victims of the delay and not the developer/One Properties and we have a very good claim of success of reclaiming monies paid to date. 

Regards

Mark


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06 Nov 2008 2:36 PM by dstill Star rating. 2 forum posts Send private message

Hi All,

I've just read through all the posts on this thread as it's been a while since I've looked at what's going on, even though we've had all the standard letters. 
we have instructed lawyers (maria) to act on our behalf and was wondering who else is working with her from this development?

Like most of you we have been told by our lawyer that we must enter into litigation to exercise the bank guarantees. I have noticed however that ours expires in december 2008  and even though it may be cynical of me - the bank may just be holding out in the hope of mot refunding the monies!!!!

good luck everyone
blessings
Donna


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