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POLL: Should the UK give Gibraltar back to the Spanish?
Wednesday, August 7, 2013 @ 6:40 PM

Last weekend, the incidents at the border between Spain and Gibraltar may have had the hallmarks of a summer squabble between two normally friendly nations. Without warning, Spanish police imposed severe restrictions on traffic, resulting in six hour delays and causing hardship for the elderly, children and the unwell in searing temperatures.
The tension was only abated when David Cameron contacted his Spanish counterpart and demanded that the harassment of people entering and leaving this British territory on the Iberian peninsula cease forthwith.

Arguably, the incident is yet further evidence that the EU’s goal of a complicated system of overlapping loyalties arising in Europe from the abolition of borders is flawed and unworkable.

Spain wants Gibraltar back even though it has been a British crown territory for exactly 300 years – that is since the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713 when it ceded the town and harbor of Gibraltar ‘forever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever’. But one might ask the question, what would they do with it? 

For those who don't know the history of Gibraltar, here is a quick summary:


Gibraltar was seized in 1704 by the British as part of its operations against the French in the War of the Spanish Succession. The goal of the war was to prevent the French from inheriting the Spanish throne in addition to their own considerably wealthy kingdom. The British and their Dutch allies were planning to enter the Mediterranean sea in an attempt to apply pressure on the French to the South and to get the French to divert some of their naval resources from the Atlantic and the Caribbean. It was hoped that they could form a bridgehead somewhere in Southern Spain in order to advance on Madrid.
In May 1704, Admiral Rooke took 30 English ships and 19 Dutch Ships of the Line into the Mediterranean. Additionally, they carried 2,400 marines who were to be commanded by Prince George von Hesse-Darmstadt who was the Queen's cousin. They were going to attempt to seize Nice but diverted themselves to Barcelona instead. They did capture this city but were to abandon it shortly afterwards. They then heard the disturbing news that the French Brest Fleet had entered the Mediterranean seeking to rendezvous with the Toulon fleet which would have created un unassailable combined strength of some 95 ships of the line. The British and Dutch fleet needed to find a safe anchorage West of Toulon in order to plan their next move. They considered trying to take Cadiz but assumed that it would be very heavily defended. The Prince then suggested Gibraltar - it would be garrisoned but not to the extent that Cadiz would be.

On August 1st, the fleet entered Gibraltar Bay. Boatloads of Marines were despatched to the Isthmus to close off the Peninsular. The Spanish Governor was asked if he would surrender in face of the overwhelming firepower at the British and Dutch command. The Spanish governor refused as a point of honour.

A thunderous bombardment commenced on August 3rd against the Spanish garrison. The overwhelming gunfire was quickly followed up by the marines who swarmed into the devastated Spanish batteries and defences. It was all over by nightfall. The Spanish requested a three day grace period to tend to the sick and wounded. On August 6th the Prince claimed the port - but not for England - but for the Austrian Charles of Habsburg who was the candidate the English were backing for the Spanish throne.

In the aftermath of the battle, the Protestant British and Dutch treated the local Catholic population brutally and harshly. Churches were ransacked, property was looted and women were raped as officers lost control of their troops. Utterly traumatised by these events, the population fled into exile, many of them setting up a new version of the town in nearby San Rocque. Indeed, San Rocque still has the ecclesiastical and civic records from the original Spanish settlement in Gibraltar.

The seizure of Gibraltar allowed the English and Dutch fleet to meet the French off of Malaga on August 24th. After a hard fought battle in which the English virtually ran out of ammunition, the two fleets broke off from one another. Although technically a draw, the result went hand in hand with the land victory at Blenheim on the very same day. These combined results were a serious setback for the French backed candidate. The war would drag on for another 8 years before the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713 would finally close the conflict. It was to be this Treaty that would formally cede Gibraltar (along with Minorca) to the British in perpetuity. This would give the British a permanent base in the Mediterranean for the first time.

With the Spanish population virtually eliminated from the colony, a fresh population was imported from a variety of trading and maritime ports. In particular settlers came from Britain, Genoa and Sephardic Jews - these would later be joined by Maltese. The welcoming of Sephardic Jews was particularly resented by Spain as they had specifically included a clause in the Treaty of Utrecht to ban the settlement of Jews in Gibraltar.
Over time, this non-Spanish population would evolve an identity that was more closely tied to the fortunes of the Empire's maritime fortunes than in wishing to be re-united with Spain. Suspicion of Spain would be further tested with attempts by the Spanish to recapture Gibraltar in 1727 and then again in 1782 during the American War of Independence. Spain considered swapping the island of Puerto Rico in 1783 but finally changed its mind.

The British victory at Trafalgar in 1805 would cement the security and indispensability of the port to Britain's burgeoning Twentieth Century Empire. There would be no more attempts to seize Gibraltar by force and none even considered until the Twentieth Century.

After General Franco became the Fascist leader of Spain after the Spanish Civil War, he began to consider its re-incorporation into Spain. In fact, during WW2, the Germans discussed the possibility of Nazi troops seizing Gibraltar and returning it to Spain. However, Franco did not wish to be dragged into the war and also was suspicious of the motives of the Third Reich. He did not want to give them an excuse to march through Spain and so resisted the temptation. There were in fact rumours that the British hinted that they would return it to Spain in return for Franco's neutrality, although this has never been confirmed.

In fact, it was to be the Cold War that gave the greatest threat to the British presence in Gibraltar. The US was looking for its own version of a Gibraltar port for its Sixth Fleet in the Mediterranean. The anti-Communist credentials of Franco could not be faulted and a joint US/Spanish port and airbase was constructed at Rota some 60 miles North West of Gibraltar in the 1950s and a series of pacts and trade deals were signed between the US and Spain.

Queen Elizabeth II travelled to Gibraltar for its 250th anniversary in 1954. Franco, emboldened by his new acceptance by America, felt confident enough to up the pressure on Britain. He used the visit as an excuse to close its consulate in Gibraltar and introduced border restrictions.

Britain was having to come to terms with its own dimunition of power. This would be confirmed by the Suez Canal Crisis in 1956 which severely dented Britain's military and diplomatic credibility in the Mediterranean. Franco took his claim on Gibraltar to the United Nations which agreed to back its claim in the General Assembly.

Britain's response was to empower the Gibraltarians by giving them a constitutional veto on the issue of its return to Spain. This was technically an amendment to the original Treaty of Utrecht. Originally, Britain had sole control over the sovereignty of the Rock but now it had joint sovereinty with the population of the Rock.

This granting of a veto further infuriated Franco who responded by closing the border and severing all communications links between Spain and Gibraltar. This would last for 13 long years.

In 1973, Britain joined the EU and as a dependent territory, Gibraltar did also. Spain would not join until 1986. Tensions have relaxed between Spain and Gibraltar in recent years. Gibraltar is part of the South West Constituency in the European Parliament.
Despite the less bellicose relationship, the Spanish would still love to see the Rock returned to them and still test the territorial integrity of waters around Gibralter.

In 2002, a referendum asked the question:

"Do you approve of the principle that Spain and the United Kingdom should share sovereignty over Gibraltar?"

Just 187 people voted Yes, whilst 17,900 voted No. This 99% majority demonstrated that the population was yet to be convinced of the merits of changing the status of its sovereignty and of exercising their veto rights gained in 1969.

In many ways, Gibraltar is probably the most significant remaining dependent territory for the British. It still holds a strategically vital position and it still maintains port and airfield facilities and can monitor flows of shipping into and out of the Mediterranean.

So should the British give it back?

 



Like 0




50 Comments


Patuco said:
Wednesday, August 7, 2013 @ 6:45 PM

Gibraltar is niether spain to claim nor birtain to give away its is the peoples right to decide what we want and we already have 99% of us decided to stay British.


mac75 said:
Wednesday, August 7, 2013 @ 6:50 PM

If life was that simple. Government interests often over-ride the people's choice. Nobody wanted Hong Kong to be given back to China and they did it anyway, it would have been a political nightmare if they hadn't. Spain could turn this into a political nightmare if they wished...but I don't think they will.


Bernie1984 said:
Thursday, August 8, 2013 @ 3:43 AM

Yes, the British should return Gibraltar to Spain.

Due to the actions of Britain in the isthmus of Gibraltar (area not given away by the Utrecht Treaty of 1713), and the intent of usurpation of the Spanish territorial waters surrounding the Rock (the Treaty only ceded the "city and castle of Gibraltar with no territorial jurisdiction, nor land communication", literal words from its text), the Treaty of Utrecht is long broken with respect to this topic.

The Special Committee on Decolonization of the UN in 1961, stated Gibraltar as a colony, and declared its Constitution of 2006 as a violation of the Treaty of Utrecht. Thus, only Retrocession to Spain applies.

The UK can't do any change in the status of the colony. If it were to do so, first Spain must be consulted (same article X of the Treaty)


Joseph said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 7:10 AM

Gibraltar belongs to the Gibraltarians. If Britain were to "give" Gibraltar to Spain, The US would have to give the northern states of the US to the Red Indians, and the southern states to the Mexicans who would in turn have to "give" these back to the Incas, Aztecs, and other indigenous displaced inhabitants. Your Poll is misguided and inane. What gives you the right to question the rights of the current and legitimate occupants of Gibraltar, i.e. those born and bred there for the last 300 odd years??


richatd said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 7:35 AM

Are Spain going to give back Ceuta to the Moroccans to? And the other two disputed terrotries in Morocco which they've defended with force over the years any sympathy for Spain when they are equally 'guilty' ???


Roger Goss said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 7:53 AM

I agree with the comment , where its the people who live there that should make that choice, would it make any difference to Britain anyway.


Adam said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 8:28 AM

If you cut open a stick of rock, you see a word all the way through. If you could cut open the Rock of Gibraltar, that word would be 'British'. Sure, it hasn't always been British, but in modern times and for over 300 years it has been - and that is what is relevant today. Spain will never like it, and as such it will always be problematic for relations between the UK, Spain and Gibraltar, but as Gibraltar has earned the right to self determination then British it will remain. If Spain really wanted to win the Gibraltarians over then it would have to make it attractive to do so. Now I, like many people in Europe and also many Gibraltarians, appreciate and am even passionate about a lot that Spain has to offer: it's rich culture, traditions, natural beauty, cuisine, etc. But the Gibaltarians see another side to Spain that many outsiders do not. International politics are magnified for the Gibraltarians and they see a menacing bully, who reacts in a childish but harmful and dangerous way when it doesn't get it's own way. As long as Gibraltar doesn't respond in a similarly uncouth fashion, then the recent conflict can only help Gibraltar's case and support, as Spain's antics are laid bare for the world to see. Why would the Gibraltarians ever decide to align with the aggressor who has tormented them for over 300 years and continues to do so on a day basis? When I see the Gibraltar, British and EU flags flying on the Gibraltar side of the border, and the Union Flag flying from the Moorish Castle and the top of the Rock then I have an immense feeling of pride for what the Gibraltarians stand for. Gibraltar has the freedom to determine its own future, and to borrow a phrase from the National Anthem "May you be forever free, Gibraltar, my own land."


Terry Hewitt said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 8:53 AM

Britain should only give Gibraltar back to the Spanish if that is what the majority of Gibraltar residents want.


Brian said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 9:38 AM

I appreciate that world politics control people and not vice verse as it should be.
Having said that Gibraltarians want to be just that by a 99% majority so leave it that way and stuff the politicians they will always find something to argue about. What else would they do to show their self importance.


Catalanbrian said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 9:45 AM

I just wonder whether the majority of 99% in favour of remaining part of Britain would be maintained if the Gibraltarians were required to pay the same taxes as the rest of the UK population.


N. Al-Bulushi said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 9:49 AM

Only IF Spain also gives back Melilla AND Ceuta to Morocco - Spain shall NEVER be allowed to play double standards. This should be ONE the the main arguing points for the UK.


Jose said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 10:03 AM

The whole issue is a transparent attempt by the Spanish Leader to divert attention from the serious economic crisis that he is still trying to get control of and try to galvanise popular support around an issue that the majority of Spanish people will support.
A similar tactic used by a certain President Galtieri in Argentina over the Falklands.....



Den said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 10:23 AM

The majority that work there are Spanish....si....so, give it back to them. The only people the Gibraltarians are interested in is themselves and I am not the only one to say that. The comment about tax and Gib being treated the same is true you take away their tax concessions and they start to cry. They are truly a law unto themselves and do no like outsiders raising the dust until something happens that they cannot tackle then Mother has to come to the rescue, even the fish are getting fed up with it.....


Adam said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 10:34 AM

I think Spain has enough of it's own problems without worrying about Gib.

I lived in Spain for 14 years and the last 4 have been terrible, The Spanish system is corrupt! I believe Spain will end up like a third world country. If they want Gibroltar back why don't they take it ! There is no need to make petulant statements like "we'll block the airspace" pathetic !


Catmandu said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 10:35 AM

If the Spanish have any sense they would let the British take over Spain. We couldn't make any worse job than they have.


N & H Bulushi said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 10:48 AM

Mazerron is crying foul! My wife and I have an apt in Puerto la Duquesa in a lovely development up the hill overlooking the Marina, in Manilva just 10km to the south of Estepona and 30 minutes drive to Gibraltar.

We love the area and the people and one can choose between the British part (the marina) and the Spanish part (Sabinillas), both next to each other and at the beach front. Hower, since we have 2 little ones and 2 teenage boys we find this area to a bit too quiet and rather boring. So we decided to look for somewhere in between and hence decided to hit the road up the northern eastern coastas.

Over the past week we have been to Valencia, Denia, Xavia, Gandia, Calp, Mazarron and AlMunecar. Albeit we only stopped over in AlMunicar and missed Nerja. Our own observations: for us forget about Gandia - kind of a dump with hundred of 60s high rises. Xavia - well pedicured and manicured, quite expensive and unfrotunately reminds us of Austria!. Beatyfull, well groomed, too upmarket (most upper middle class) and terribly boring!. Denia - great place, more fun, liveable with probably just the right mix of Spanish and expats of a mix lower, middle and upper middle classes. Has more character with its promenade and Tapas street etc and a bit of more fun loving people.

On our way back booked a hotel somehow in the middle and in a totally unknown town to us - in Mazerron in the region of Murcia some 70km to the south of Murcia. To us this was gem - a discovery by pure chance. Loved the place. Why??. 1st the temperature. Warmer than any other place by a 3-4 degrees that means even winters we are told are warmer as the area is pretty similar to Arizona. 2nd the beaches. You can have a beach either to your self, or with a few people or packed like sardines - choice is yours!. Can have sandy, rocky or pebbles and secluded between mountains. Loved the Marina, with salsa dancing clubs and all over the town people seem to be happy and in a party atmoshere with a very decent mix of classes of pople in a balanced and nice way. Spoke to a few UK expats and they love it. Since the weather is warmer surprising the sea is also warmer - for us the only place we could swim in the sea without shivering. This was probably the least expensive place we have been too. While in Denia we also spend a day in Valencia and loved the city BUT it's a city.

Our conclusion - for a permanent place to live we will definitely also visit Nerja and revisit AlMunecar, Mazerron, and Denia and possibly Valencia. We are looking for place that is a bit jazzy, with charactrer, good climate, friendly, right balance of Spanish - expat and not too expensive, and young and senior, and with a school for expats (for the teenagers) and good Spanish schools for the little one's!.

Basically we want every thing!. Anyone interested in starting a new town somewhere in the coasters please do not hesitate to contact us!!!!!!.


mike said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 10:58 AM

UK has had Gibraltar for 300 years. Let's make a kind gesture and give it back to Spain. Gibraltarians would be better off, too!


lee halliday said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 11:42 AM

It's never going to happen.Theres too much financial knock on effects that would effect the elite for it to be a discussion point.

Imperialists do not retain power on a value based opinion because they want to stand by the inhabitants but purely to ensure the elite carry on being the elite. Hence why were drilling for oil in the Malvinas and the same in Africa by a company headed up by an ex politician. Wealth and greed will be the only factors involved and for those that are proud to have the British flag flying high study more history. We have stole wealth, created concentration camp's well before the Germans, supported Hitlers arms recruit along with the U.S prior to the war, same as we have done in the Arab countries. There's many perspectives and opinions in Spain about the civil war but what's not up for debate is the role the British Germany played in supporting Franco both financially, in arms, and embargoes to the south of Spain to ensure that a true capitalist system was retained to ensure the elite stay in power. I'm not talking about politicians, I'm taking about the people whos wealth dictates who's in charge and only they can make the decision. Turkey voting for Xmas. Any areas of the world that helps UK business hide their wealth will not be changed.


Ryan said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 11:49 AM

We should say to Spain that we will happily give them Gibraltar, the day after they return their enclaves on the north African coast (Cueta & Melilla) to Morocco. They will NEVER do that (double standards) and we will have the moral high ground for ever - simples


David H said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 12:05 PM

Just get your atlas out to see how immensely complicated it would be if the World was to turn back the clock hundreds of years and have all overseas territories returned to their original populations; it would be utterly chaotic.
Right now Spain is struggling to manage its own problems and would be simply incapable of improving the lot of Gibraltarians under Spanish rule.
It doesn't take a great leap of the imagination to figure-out the kind of state Gibraltar would be in after 12 months of Spanish meddling in its affairs.


Lizzie said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 12:08 PM

It's a very tricky subject. The Spanish are so well known for double standards, head in the sand and sticking to something until the death even if it's morally wrong (I know as i'm married to a Spaniard). The comments on the El Pais and El Mundo websites is shocking if you understand Spanish...very anti Brit and aggressive about getting Gib back. It makes me so very angry and also sad that they just can't see the damage and hurt that a few corrupt bad'uns have done to their whole country. I've lost a part of me because of the stress caused by corruption in Spain...and we'll be paying over the odds for years and years....that really hurts...not just financially but mentally it's tiring when you just can't see the end of the problem. The Spanish claim that Gib is full of Brit pirates who deal in cigarrete contraband/drugs etc. etc. and then casinos without proper licences etc. My father in law says that they are 'lawless' which is a joke coming from an Andaluz!!! I say that if those who live on Gib want to stay as they are then stay, as Spain won't hand back anything of theirs will they... they need it because they are bankrupt. Imagine if Spain had to pay benefits as do other countries...they just don't have the means.

Also, Spain depends on British tourists.... to do it peacefully all it needs is The Sun newspaper etc. to have 'Visit Greece, Avoid Spain' and advertise Greek hotels/flights etc. Steer Brits away from spending their hard earned cash in Spain as we are their main source of tourist income!! Make them suss out that they need the British pounds to survive! They believe that they are the only country with sunshine.... what about visiting Morocco as they also have sun and now with latest building developments also have lovely hotels/food and hospitality. They'll learn when you hit their pockets...as the Brits have been their cash cow for too long!!


janet.patel said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 12:45 PM

How who we like it if the Spanish had invaded the Isle of wight & kept it as Spanish. We would not like it. We did not like it when the Germans invaded Jersey, irrispective of the time we would & did fight tooth & nail to get it back


Sheila said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 12:47 PM

Surely it's the right of the people who live on Gibraltar to say if they wish to be considered British or Spanish. The way Spain is at this moment in time I think they should get their own affairs in order before trying to suggest that they could do better governing Gibraltar.


Chris said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 1:30 PM

To suggest that Gibraltar would be better off as part of Spain is totally ridiculous: They would be worse off in all the following: Education, Wealth, Transparency, Integrity, Employment, Health, Sport, ethnic Integration, prospects, political fairness, freedom and voice. Just ask the 8000 Spanish who work in Gibraltar if they would be better off too?



MIKE said:
Saturday, August 10, 2013 @ 9:18 PM

How who we like it if the Spanish had invaded the Isle of wight & kept it as Spanish.

i would have loved this, as i live in portsmouth, we would just have to get a ferry across to tapas sun and sangria, and i bet it would be hotter there. lets let spain have the IOW and we keep GIB,


Bernie1984 said:
Sunday, August 11, 2013 @ 12:14 AM

For those who say that Ceuta and Melilla are a "double standard" in the Spanish mentality... please go and study a bit of history, please.

Both were linked to the province of Hispania since Roman times. After that, Ceuta was conquered in 1478 by Portugal, and ceded to Spain after its war of independence in 1640. With respect to Melilla, it was a gift of a Berber sultan on early the XVI century.

The Alaui kingdom (germ of modern-day Morocco) was founded in the area of the lower Atlas in mid-XVII century, and they had no control (or in modern nomenclature "jurisdiction") over the northern coast of Africa. Their claim over Ceuta and Melilla doesn't come into scene up to 1956, after modern-day Morocco gained independence from France.

Gibraltar was taken by force from a preexisting kingdom (Castile) in a context of civil war in Spain (succession of the king of Spain) on behalf of Archduke Charles of Habsburg (pretendent to the Spanish throne) when there was no war between Spain and England. Original Gibraltarians were either forced to leave their city (founded the city of San Roque, Cadiz) or killed, and the new settlers came from dozens of locations away.

Indeed, Ceuta-Melilla and Gibraltar are a totally different case. If you want to know more and get an even better description of the events, check the Encyclopaedia Britannica, edition of 1875. You will find something that will definitely surprise you.

Have a great day!


Pedro Jose said:
Sunday, August 11, 2013 @ 12:16 AM

Give Gibraltarians complete independence from Spain and the UK. The rock is of no benefit to the UK in the 21st century and they should not rely on the UK to underpin them. Remove the Union Jack from their flag and any other UK device they use to encourage the belief that they are part of the UK, which they are not. Ships registered there should not display the Union Jack , British taxpayers should not be called upon to finance patrols. by the Royal Navy nor to underwrite compensation to UK victims of dodgy investment companies like Barlow Clowes.


EL Condor said:
Sunday, August 11, 2013 @ 10:51 AM

Quote
Catmandu said:
10 August 2013 @ 10:35

If the Spanish have any sense they would let the British take over Spain. We couldn't make any worse job than they have. Quote

What ???? and let the Pakistani's , Indians and Caribbean's run all the small business like they do in the UK !




ariel said:
Sunday, August 11, 2013 @ 9:41 PM

i think Gibraltar should be given back to spain


Daniel D said:
Monday, August 12, 2013 @ 6:05 PM

Absolutely Britain should give Gibraltar back to Spain! All colonies must be ceded. The time of empires is over. Enough rubbish about planters "rights". Te Uk should leave Gibraltar and the Falklands and Ulster and every place on earth it conquered and exploited. It was easy to do with Hong Kong despite resistance from the residents! And while we're at it, get rid of the monarchy - it makes no sense in an egalitarian society. It is precisely these things that make me ashamed to be British - a stain on our history, traditions and people. Wake up people!


Ryan said:
Tuesday, August 13, 2013 @ 2:36 PM

Bernie1984, you say - 'Ceuta was conquered in 1478 by Portugal, and ceded to Spain after its war of independence in 1640' - apart from semantics that's no difference to Gibraltar being ceded by war and subsequent treaty too - get your thinking cap on for heavens sake


Bernie1984 said:
Wednesday, August 14, 2013 @ 3:55 AM

Ryan,

Several things:

1) I made a typo writing the previous post: it was conquered by Portugal in 1415 in a context of war (reconquest of the Christian territories prior to the Islamic expansion. It was a roman city recovered by Portugal, and it became Hispanic after the dynastic union in 1580. After Portugal's independence war in 1640, Ceuta fought on the side of Spain (in a context of war) to remain under Spanish rule. The city still bears the flag of Lisbon and the coat of arms of Portugal to honor its past.

2) Please, illustrate me telling me what kind of war context was there between Spain and England in 1704. As far as I know, every single historian states that Gibraltar was taken over on behalf of Archduke Charles of Habsburg, pretendent to the Spanish throne. That means it was stolen on the first place.

3) It's not me, but the UN who defined Gibraltar as a colony that had to be handed back to Spain. Subsequent referendums and constitutions were defined as illegitimate by the same UN, organization that still keeps Gibraltar as a colony that has to be handed back to Spain. No self-determination rights apply here as the population was transplanted after the territory was taken over by the English.

4) It's not me, but the Court of Justice of the EU who sentenced that the waters surrounding the rock are Spanish. Gibraltar and the UK said that they were not going to accept the sentence.

5) Gibraltar says the concrete blocks are to help the wildlife and the environment, but at the same time bunkering is done off its shore (in Spanish waters according to the court of justice of the EU)

As I said in my previous post: go and read a bit. But not only history, you really need it.

Cheers!


Ryan said:
Friday, August 16, 2013 @ 11:41 AM

Bernie1984 - your comments are pompous as expected. I don't need to read more, I am university educated to post graduate standard, have worked in industry at a senior level and have managed university departments. History is a subject I'm passionate about, but can be used selectively to validate any long held opinion - justified or not. The EU court do not have an unblemished record of perfect decisions, the UN bows to political pressure, and both organisations have an agenda of their own. Double standards are double standards however you dress them up. You perhaps need to read less about history and think more about human rights, hypocrisy and political posturing - which is what all this is about


Ralph said:
Sunday, August 18, 2013 @ 5:38 PM

Gibraltar has been an invaded land.


Bugman said:
Monday, August 19, 2013 @ 11:35 AM

The potentially corrupt Spanish authorities should stop trying to deflect public opinion away from themselves by using Gibraltar as a PR scapegoat. let Spain set an example to us all and give back all of its disputed territories and let all of the little fish go!


Bernie1984 said:
Wednesday, August 21, 2013 @ 3:35 PM

Ryan...

I would like to know in which way is it related to the Gib issue that you have worked in industry at senior level... do you think that because you are "university educated to post graduate standard" you can use it as an argument, assuming that I haven't... but wrong, buddy!

Wanna talk of double standards? Let's go for it: UK gave away HK (ceded in perpetuity by the Qing dynasty) when the lease of the "New Territories" expired. UK's government denied the applications of citizenship of almost all the former british hongkongers, and all this was done because "HK was neither profitable nor self sustainable." Random question: HK was not profitable with 156 sq km of land... and Gib is profitable with 6.8 Sq km from which about half is a rock?

Go and talk about democracy to the deported inhabitants of Diego Garcia prior to the lease of the island to the US.

Returning Gibraltar's sovereignty to Spain doesn't imply that Gibraltarians have to surrender their British citizenship. Spain has said that many times. The rock is Spanish. But the citizens can be from anywhere.


Smith said:
Monday, August 26, 2013 @ 4:54 PM

Totally agree with Bernie! I am ashamed of being British... The Empire no longer exists, we should give back all lands we've stolen. Gibraltarians can't decide the future of the rock, they were placed into the stolen rock, it wouldn't fair. They can still remain British, but Gibraltar should and will eventually be Spanish. Cheers from London!


Bernie1984 said:
Tuesday, September 3, 2013 @ 5:55 PM

Smith,

Don't be ashamed of being British! You have a great country and a great history as well! I've been there many times (particularly in London) and I love it!

It is true that those territories should be handed back, but, in fact, we can't allow this to be a source of problems in the Spanish-British friendship (I have LOTS of British friends, and I am really proud of them).

I honestly think that a temporary solution like the one suggested by Mr. Blair in 2002 would have been the solution to this historic mistake. First a co-sovereignty and after a certain time defined by a treaty, transfer of sovereignty to Spain. And let the citizens be British!

(As far as I know, Spain has not required those hundreds of thousands of Britons living in Spain to surrender their British citizenship... this could be the exact same situation)

Cheers from Valencia!!


Ryan said:
Friday, September 6, 2013 @ 10:57 AM

Bernie, you are as pompous and evasive as ever. I mentioned my education because you said I should read more, even though your reading seems very selective. eg do you think USA should return the lands (Texas, New Mexico etc) that it took from Mexico by force rather than treaty ? There are so many examples like this around the world, but the focus seems to be on a spec on the Iberian peninsular and only on anything British. And as usual you haven't won the argument on Spanish double standards (Cueta, Melilla) other than try to explain them away as a technicality - it's just pathetic and transparent anti British bias


Bernie1984 said:
Friday, September 6, 2013 @ 4:26 PM

Ryan...

Indeed, you should read more. One thing: its name is Ceuta, not Cueta. You're welcome.

Also, don't plead me guilty of anti-British bias, because I am not anti-British at all. Thank god I have dozens of British friends from the many times I have been in your country. I love England as much as I love Spain, but the issue of Gibraltar is a totally different story.

So I am evasive? I am giving you reasons: historic, political, and treaty-based reasons. I compare them to former or current British possessions, and I am being evasive and pompous? What actually happens is that you don't have real arguments to refute the arguments I am showing you.

Under the treaty of Utrecht, Spain also gave away in perpetuity the island of Minorca. However, read the treaty carefully (read it!) and you will find a few surprising things:

1) Under its terms, Gibraltar (and Minorca!) were ceded in perpetuity to the King of England. That's true. No word against what this says.

2) YOUR country (not mine, careful with this) put a clause in the treaty, totally impeding land communication with the surrounding Spain. And YOUR country (not mine) took over the isthmus (not ceded in the treaty*) and built the "fence" and the airport on neutral territory (not actually neutral because it was never ceded, let's say "buffer zone", but integral part of Spain).

*The treaty ceded Gibraltar as it was in 1704 (Castle, town and harbour). Any further expansions towards Spain on the isthmus were illegal. (Not to the south, towards the Rock)

And 3) Britain has no right to change the status of Gibraltar without asking to Spain first. And this is explicitly said in the article X of the Treaty of Utrecht. Check this quote:

"And in case it shall hereafter seem meet to the Crown of Great Britain to grant , sell or by any means to alienate therefrom the propriety of the said town of Gibraltar, it is hereby agreed and concluded that the preference of having the sale shall always be given to the Crown of Spain before any others."

And that includes independence, withdrawal, or any other means. And that also includes BEFORE the "llanitos" can be asked. Changing the status by providing self-government is a type of alienation of the territory. The UN was clear about this, and defined (and still keeps) Gibraltar as a colony.

Why didn't the UN include "Cueta" (sorry, too funny to not mention at least once, haha) and Melilla in the list of territories to be decolonized? Perhaps because they created that list based on actual historic and documented evidence. And they concluded that Gib IS a colony, whereas Ceuta and Melilla are not.

Are you telling me that a totally destroyed country, recovering from a civil war, under a military dictatorship, and isolated from the rest of the world (Spain) had more power in the UN than one of the founders of the League of Nations, and the United Nations, and also victorious in the World War II? (The UK). Wow! That is incredibly amazing!

Is this one of my pompous, vague, and evasive arguments? (I recognize that the last two paragraphs are a bit sarcastic, though haha)

What would you consider a proper argument? Something that proofs you are right? Man, that doesn't make any good debate...


Ryan said:
Friday, September 6, 2013 @ 5:34 PM

Bernie,i didn't say you were anti British, I said the argument is - which it certainly is. No matter how you twist the truth Cueta and Melilla are not natural parts of Spain. Europe is littered with examples of territory ceded in times of war etc, but civilised people move on and get on with the future instead of harping on about issues which are hundreds of years old. Indeed most of Europe looked very different 2 hundred years ago and Italy and Germany were not even countries then, but no one wants to redraw the map of 18.15 apart from one tiny blob on the Spanish peninsular. If we were to list the territories in the world which once belonged to a different country, we'd be here all day (you curiously glossed over the ones I mentioned (Texas, Arizona, New Mexico etc) and there are hundreds of others. Argentina for example expanded rapidly in the 19th century and now posses vast swathes of land that used to belong to others.

To shed some light, maybe we should list the territories around the world which have changes hands by treaty and war etc and if we listed them in size and population, and I'd be surprised if Gibraltar made the first 20 pages. People need to calm down, grow up and move on, or at least prioritise.

By the way, I'm pro Spain on most issues and spend a lot of time there with our Spanish friends, but on this one they're wrong no matter how many teddies they/you throw out of the pram.


Bernie1984 said:
Monday, September 9, 2013 @ 5:00 PM

Ryan,

I can give you as much evidence to show you that you have a misconception about the situation of Ceuta and Melilla. Don't look at them as the Gibraltar case, but instead, compare them with the Bailiwicks of Jersey and Guernsey (which using the same analogy, they are closer to France, and thus are not a natural part of the UK). No one doubts of the fact they are British. Same thing applies to Ceuta and Melilla. No one doubts they are a natural part of Spain. As I told you before, the first claim from Morocco over them doesn't appear until 1956, when Morocco became independent. Thus, they are not a remnant of past colonial times. It is different case.

Now, with respect to Gibraltar, although there has been a claim always to see it returned to Spain since 1704, the increased claims from Spain don't come from the Rock itself. It was ceded, and only the UK is the one who has to speak with Spain about the situation.

The root of the problem is something else - and that is why I told you to read more about the topic. There used to be a "buffer zone" in between Gibraltar and Spain, allowed by Spain, on Spanish territory (sorry for how it sounds, but it is important to remark) to avoid frictions with Gibraltar at the border. I am going to give you a few remarks, so you can find out what am I talking about. There have been territorial expansions of Gibraltar at least in four occasions:

- 1815: after a plague struck Gibraltar, Spain allowed the use of the buffer zone to install a temporary hospital. The constructions were never demolished.

- 1854: Same thing as in 1815, but in this case, Gibraltar moved even further north, and built a fence to physically separate Gibraltar from the mainland.

- 1908: Gibraltar builds a fence even further north, annexing de facto 106 of the 156 ha. of the buffer zone, and built another fence. Since this, the border between Gibraltar and Spain is known by the locals as "la verja" ("the fence"), because those territories are NOT part of Gibraltar.

-1938: in the middle of the Spanish Civil War, Gibraltar built its airbase over land gained to the sea. This implies changing the maritime border, again into Spanish waters. For this reason, Spain never recognized the air space belonging to Gibraltar.

These territorial expansions have converted Gibraltar into something that can be hardly recognized from the original layout of the BOT of Gibraltar.

These are the real facts. Those land extensions and annexations are the ones that, along with the provocations of Mr. Picardo with the concrete blocks, triggered the conflict once more.

I am not trying to redraw the borders of 1815. Neither in Europe, nor in the rest of the world. However, the case of Gibraltar is something else. It is just a matter of justice.


Ryan said:
Tuesday, September 17, 2013 @ 10:19 AM

Sorry Bernie, but it's all just more 'small print'. In the real world, we are where we are regardless of how we got here. Huge changes have happened around the world and some people are still obsessing about a tiny spec of land, when there are bigger issues at stake. As it happens I think logically Gibraltar should be Spanish but we can't go back in time. Your comparison of Guernsey/Jersey to Melilla/Ceuta is laughable - those Spanish colonies aren't even on the same CONTINENT as Spain - how tenuous a claim is that ? Anyway, good luck, but I won't be commenting any more because although I'm pro Spain on many issues, we'll never agree on this because of the double standards involved - Adios


Bernie1984 said:
Tuesday, September 24, 2013 @ 12:21 AM

Don't make me laugh about the double standards. Are the Falklands in the same continent as the UK? And Diego Garcia? And what about Santa Helena? And we can continue up to 14 not-self-governing territories according to the UN. That list also includes Gibraltar, no matter how you try to justify it. Misteriously, it doesn't include Ceuta and Melilla. But according to your way of thinking, that has to be a conspiracy of some kind.

Gibraltar could be compared to a tiny tip of the land's end in Britain being ruled by the Germans. Would the british tolerate it? There you have your "double standard".

Besides, blaming someone of "double standards" while keeping 14 not-self-governing territories all over the world against all applicable UN resolutions... you should check that way of thinking, just in case it is due to an illness, just in case it gets worse. Just a suggestion, lol


Nick Moreno said:
Monday, October 7, 2013 @ 1:09 AM

Britain can give Gib back to Spain when Spain gives Catalonia back to the Catalonians...


Karibu said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 9:38 AM

I think the History is largely irrelevant. What do the Gibraltarians want? And secondly, when Spain joined "the club" (EU), I think that there is an implied acceptance of the state of the club they are joining (in this case GB and Gibraltar). To have had the benefits of joining the EU (and all the benefits - largely squandered), its a bit rich to make an issue out of this now. Large swathes of Europe are considering closer integration, so this posturing makes no sense other than appealing to latent nationalism. Also who would regain this territory? Spain is a federation, some members of who are seeking "independence"? Lets move on and deal with real issues.


ELCondor said:
Sunday, October 20, 2013 @ 3:33 PM

If the Gibraltarians, had to pay the same taxes as everyone else in the EU, and have their own Health Service, things would be different!



Bernie1984 said:
Thursday, November 7, 2013 @ 5:38 PM

Nick Moreno,

That is a totally different story. Catalonia to the Catalonians(??). Catalonia is integral part of Spain since its foundation, was not conquered by the force, and is not, and has never been in the past, a colony. Also, Catalonia has more autonomy than Scotland, Wales, or any German Bundesland. You should check that out.

Karibu,

The Gibraltarians were literally "put there". They are not descendants of the original inhabitants of the Rock. Also Gibraltar doesn't belong to the Schengen Space (in the same way as the UK), and for that reason, there is not freedom of movement and settlement, and therefore the Treaty of Utrecht prevails, so history is not that irrelevant.

Spain is NOT a federation. The autonomous regions are just a form of decentralization of the central power to approach it to the citizens.

ElCondor,

Totally agree with you. They pay much lower taxes, none of them in Spain, but they make use of our health system, and the rich ones (including Mr. Picardo!!) live in Sotogrande, and have properties in Spain.

Don't you love that much "your" rock and don't you say that Spain is that bad? All right, then stay in "your" rock feeding the monkeys.


Patdean said:
Friday, November 29, 2013 @ 9:14 PM

I don't understand why any EU country should be squabbling over a piece of rock that has not been theirs to govern for more than 200 years before they joined the EU.

But, if it come to warships and the PM's of both countries taking up their swords I think the UN should decide what happens and if the decision is to return Gib to the Spanish, it should happen in 100 years. This will mean none of the present Gib/Brit citizens will be governed by Spain and those born after the decision is made will have plenty of time to get used to the situation. The UN should also look at the situation where Spain governs part of what would seem to be rightfully Moroccan. Next on the list is Northern Ireland; Spanish, Italian & French Islands, etc, etc. The UN will be kept busy.

I don't believe the Spanish Government want Gibraltar, they are sabre rattling as a distraction from their internal economic problems and to show how tough they are.


Angélique said:
Wednesday, April 8, 2015 @ 3:29 PM

Gibraltar is in Spain, british should give it back just like france gave back algeria to arabs.

They are fucking colons in the land of many spaniards ancestors. Go back in uk god damn it.


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