Is living in Spain really that bad now???

Hi to all,

My first posting on EOS.

I lived and worked in Ibiza for the best part of four years and hope to relocate to Spain in the not too distant future.

I seem to hear nothing but bad news about how Spain has changed, How 1000's are looking to sell up and return to the UK, is it really that bad now? I ask as I would like to know the feeling that you have, from ground level, so to speak.

Ok, I know the Euro has made life difficult, and ney on impossible for people who survived on a pension from the UK, but what about the quality of life you have? The stabbings and shootings over here (I live in South East London, by the way) are now on a daily basis, I dare not go out at night to see a film or a play as the amount of danger and abuse you get on the way home is just not worth it (its a disease that effects all the UK now, even the countryside!! As I am sure you are all aware). Most of the local incidents don't make it to the papers, its all word of mouth now (think the papers do not have the room to report it all anymore, and people have just become immune to it anyway) 

I know Spain has its fair share of crime, but the Guardia Civil do appear on the streets now and again, don't they?

The police here are scared to get out of thier cars, its pretty lawless after 9pm.....gangs of youths (20+) hover around, boys and girls on station platforms, no staff, poor lighting..............its not much fun and I know lots of people who have become hermits,like me, its safer!!!

I have lived all over London, its the same where ever you try to stay, and on top of that the going rate for a small one bedroom flat to rent with all bills taken into account is £1100 per month!! That leaves nothing to socialise with anyway!

With the comming elections, all the partys are going to cut back on all services!! They even admit to that now, so its going to get very very hard to stay here or want to in the feature!!!

So please, any good news you can offer would be a lift!!! for my future dreams!!

Thank you,

Fergus. 

Hi Fergus, welcome to Eye on Spain.

I think that firstly, Spain is a huge country and every area is different.  We moan about the ridiculous price of things along the coast but drive inland for half an hour and prices are what they should be.  Many people can no longer afford to live here on their UK pensions and so have returned back to the UK.  Many have also been caught out by the recession here and cannot make ends meet which is why they are returning "home".

There is crime everywhere and petty crime is worse in Spain now as unemployment approaches an anticipated 25% by the end of next year.  I suppose when you live in London you're going to be aware of a lot more compared to others who may live in more rural parts of the UK.

I think the important thing to always realise is that nowhere is perfect.  There will always be a compromise.  Many people seem to view Spain as the answer to all their problems but it's rarely the case.  You still have to work and earn money here and jobs are very scarce and the salaries lower than in the UK.

We are very happy here.  We do like the Spanish way of life for our kids especially.  They are happy and that is what matters most to us.  I don't think it's so much the weather for us, although it does help to be able to do more outdoor stuff.  We have made some good friends here and although business is tough we are still keeping our heads above water and as long as we can do so we'll hopefully be staying put for many years to come.

Maybe we'll see you around in the not too distant future...

Justin

 I have just returned from the UK, it was my first trip in over a year.........I would not move back there if someone gave me a house, a car and ten years spending Money...........

Spain is not perfect by any standards but in my opinion is far better for my  family here.

We used to live in a nice little village that has now 70% of its pubs closed and is patrolled by gangs of youths.......after 2 days my wife didn't feel safe and wanted to come back.........

Don't believe all the hype about how bad it is here........i speak to hundreds of people that love it and would never go back.

If you come here for the right reasons you won't be dissapointed.

I won't go back to UK either after living over there for over 26 years.

Canada (Vancouver) is better than UK  but I'm willing to try Spain as the weather is nicer. Crime is everywhere nowadays. We were burgalared in Uk & in Canada.  I've heard about  crime in Spain but I'm willing to take a chance.

Dear All,

don't recognise any of it in my area,

but if life is that bad you need to get out,

what about a room in Herne Bay at £315 or self contained at £500, that should leave you enough to commute in if you are safe on your own,

but if you need a lift to Dover to exit the country, let me know,

I am sure I could help.

Regards

Norman

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!!!

Spain has done it for me and my Venezuelan wife!!

We had to go back to the UK last September, first time in four years and I felt claustrophobic!!

I felt a prisoner in my own country!! I am English, born in London, felt like a stranger!!

There are problems here, worsened by the unemployment crisis, etc., but as long as you are reasonably "street cred.", you can enjoy a good lifestyle in a very pleasant climate.

From what you say in your thread, if you gave me 10 minutes to pack, I would not know what to do with the other five??

Go for it and good luck!!

Thanks Guys and Gals!

Its appreciated!!!

Viva Espana!!

Ferg

I am not one of the rose tinted brigade who refuse to accept that Spain has its flaws among them are dog poo on the streets, poor customer service and consumer rights but I won´t go on as I have just been to the park with my children until 7pm where the other mothers from the school chatted to me and make me feel welcome where they could just ignore me as a foreigner. I would rather walk into a party full of Spanish strangers than a party ful of English strangers on the whole.  This is just one example.

Susan

We made our permanent move to Spain this March and we couldn't be happier. The village in which we live is lovely - people, atmosphere, everything.

Spain, and especially Formentera del Segura, has made us very welcome - we even got married at the Town Hall for free! - and I can't think of a better place to be.

Yes, there are some unpleasant moany people here, but there are people like that in the UK. The roads are clearer (4 cars and it's a traffic jam). Spaniards mostly take pride in their towns/villages: the ladies still sweep outside their houses every day, like they used to in the UK, but don't any more. Neighbours TALK to one another, like they used to in the UK, but don't any more. We've made some wonderful friends here who would go out of their way to help, making friends in the UK is harder because everyone hides behind the closed doors. I guess we're lucky because I am not aware of an increase in crime, in fact I am not aware of ANY crime in this village. The street cleaners come and sweep regularly, the bins are emptied daily, we've got lovely new pavements and lights, everyone speaks to us. The Spanish are excellent at putting on fiestas; when was the last one you remember in your old home town in the UK? ... oh and finally, there's the weather!

¡Viva España!

Being positive in realism... that is almost what is needed to take the best out of the place you chose to live in.

So, yes, maybe.... being realistic before coming to Spain is essential ( even having it written on a paper) ane once here, do not forget why you came and try to make the best ou of your life here.

In many occassios simplicity brings joy and freedom so do not committ to many expenses and look for easy , simple ways of living. Look for the meaning of culture, food, idiosincrasy... to know where you are swimming in and get orientation.

Look for good, real friends ( it is not easy but is possible and brings so much satisfaction)... and read, study, converse....about Spain and the spanish culture: integration.

And again... try always to stay positive in realism.

Hi Fergus

Just a word or two of warning. 

There is a very ugly side to Spain that has hardly been mentioned on this thread. The justice system!!!  It is a farce, it really is. That's not just me being negative, it's fact. If you haven't seen my 'rough justice' thread, I'll sum up. After 5 years of being conned by one of Spain's largest developers I got the courts to accept my case. It then took them two years and three months to reach a decision, (which I won!) in which time the unbelievably long delay meant the developer had gone in to administration.  The reason given that there have been so many cases of corruption in Spain that the courts are way behind dealing with cases. Not acceptable by any means, and at the moment i'm left with nothing!

Lawyers Maria and Lawbird have been very helpful in doing what they can to help, but they have to work with very poor regulation and what has proved to be a very poor and slow justice system for many people. The laws are there but often not implemented.  There are some very good people doing their best to force change, and I'm very grateful to them and the support of Justin and the team and various forum members for supporting the fight for justice.

I had dreams of living in Spain for years, and this thread amongst others proves there are many people very happy with their life in Spain, but this has left me with a very bitter taste. If I do get justice one day then I hope my former love of Spain will return, but I want people to know a seriously bad side to the country that I have experienced first hand.

Good luck, and as has been said there is good and bad to Spain and the UK, I don't think either is ''better'', it just depends what's more important to you.

Goodstich: you are right:

You may like to read this:

http://www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/costaluz/2400/legal-tip-159-new-money-for-justice-in-spain.aspx

Thanks always

Maria

Hi Maria

I'd better post on the 'rough justice' thread.!

 "Good luck, and as has been said there is good and bad to Spain and the UK, I don't think either is ''better'', it just depends what's more important to you."

Well said goodstich.

After my visit to the UK  and never having any problems with the Justice system here i can say with Hand on Heart that my enviroment is most important thing for me and my family........no competition i am afraid.

Georgia

I think unless you have to rely on the Spanish justice system for justice then you wouldn't know just how bad it is compared the UK, and I have used both.  Having said that, if it wasn't for Spain's hopeless lack of regulation when it comes to crooked developers, lawyers and council officials etc, and  to make matters worse a lack of any decent consumer protection body, then many people wouldn't have been cheated. Crooks will prosper where they can get away with it.  The mess Spains property industry is in is a reflection of the faults i've mentioned amongst others. It was bound to end this way.

I agree though that the environment is what most people prefer about Spain, me included. (In the places not ruined!)

We moved here last November and I love it.

It reminds me of life in the 1950s/60s when people used to sit outside their front doors and chat together. The Spanish are a very sociable bunch of people and my neighbours are wonderful.

I enjoy having sunny days in winter, instead of constant greyness.

Prices are reasonable around here, not like the holiday areas but not as cheap as they were when we had around 1.5 euros to the pound of course. I would love those days to return.

There's only one thing I don't like and that's the mozzies. I seem to be very tasty meat indeed..

Laury

I have to echo the positive comments about the way of life here. We've live here for over a year and would not move back to the UK, like Laury says, it's like turning the clocks back 50 years to a time when people had time for each other, when the pace of life was healthier and the streets were safe.

Yes, there are negatives too, but we find for us, they are far outweighed by the positives.

Jacqui

 Yep, us to. We moved over in Feb and love it. Everything we have had to do over here ,like NIE ,Residencia, Medical cards etc, has gone smoothly.More than I can say for getting pension and taxes sorted out at the UK end.They are still messing us about,"losing" letters etc.

I think the weather must have a lot to do with it but people ,even fellow brits, generally seem to be more relaxed and sociable over here. Crime? we definately feel safer over here.

We have had a lot of family and friends over to visit and they all envy our lifestyle. Having said that it would not be the same if we were not retired.

We moved here a year ago after living in Prague ,Czech Republic for several years and are very happy with our new life in Spain. The weather, quality of fresh food, service in general, friendly people-all much much better in comparison.  A lot depends on your attitude and expectations. We live in a quiet, residential area, a 'proper' street not an urbanicacion, our neighbours are Spanish.  We are happier being in a non-Brit-dominated area but it's good to be able to socialise with our compatriots occasionally. Yes, there are serious problems here with the poor state of the economy, the corruption that seems endemic in local government and anyone who faces losing property because of town hall corruption or incompetence deserves sympathy and understanding.

The same cannot really be said for those who thought they could make a quick buck from investing in 'cheap' property.  Greed has led to the downfall of many short-sighted would-be property entrepreneurs. At the end of the day, we are here as (mainly) welcome guests and anyone who is desperately unhappy has the option of leaving. To those who would say in reply :'I can't , I've nowhere to go' I would point out the folly of leaving yourself without an exit strategy.

Well.....

10 months on and we are still very happy with our move to Spain and our new lives together.

The quality of our lives is so much better and I think this is down to the fact that everything is better than our expectations.

The quality of fresh food, a happier and more relaxed attitude to life and the struggles one faces... and the weather does help... oh yes!

Even though we've had the good and the bad since we've moved, we wouldn't go back.

And before anyone says that things are bad in Spain... yes they are, but look around where you live, and you will see similar things going on... but things can only get better... and if it takes longer than elsewhere then so be it... at least we are at ground zero ready for the next boom!

Also, sitting in the Jacuzzi/Hot Tub at 10pm every night, looking up at the stars, relaxing, chillin' .... yes! that may have something to do with it!

Oh! And I'm 41, am not retired and do not receive a winter fuel payment, so that doesn't pay for my Cava!!!

Hi Fergus,

As Justin says, I think it depends on where in Spain you are.  I have been in Barcelona recently and there didn't seem to be any sign of a recession there.  Madrid also seems to be doing ok too and there are still plenty of jobs in both these cities if you have the right skills and speak Spanish.  My wife is from Jaen, rural Andalucia and we were there a couple of months ago and things seem to be fine there as well.  I guess farming is fairly recession proof.

However, the Costa del Sol is a different story.  It is feeling the full effects of the economic depression and is a bit of a basket case to be honest.  There's thousands of unfinished properties and properties lying empty, waiting for buyers, empty shops that have had to close and the area is generally looking a bit of a mess.  The bars and restaurants seem to be quieter and the whole place has lost the buzz it once had. 

There is also absolutely no jobs along the coast, unless you want to be a lap dancer or work in a 'sauna'.   The only jobs down here are in Gibraltar, which is booming and has saved a lot of people down here, myself included.

Saying all that, I do like it on the coast.  The weather, food and general lifestyle are great. It is only the lack of secure employment that would make us reluctantly go back to the UK.  

Dear All,

two very slightly different posts from exactly the same area.

it seems that a lucrative employment post together with the weather makes it all great.

Techno you have fallen on your feet employment-wise and without going to Gib'

Lucky chap and still with UK backup and only 41, Wow!

How good is that?????

Enjoy the tub

Regards

Norman

Just one point of view, of course:

Britain is the worst place to live in Europe

Interesting article, thanks Roberto.

I think the most interesting aspect is that Spain has the lowest average earnings and also the second longest average working week.  These are not generally condusive to happiness!

Is it the weather then thak makes all the difference?

Justin

But Spain also has the most holidays - Jeez, there's another one in a week or so.

I think this oft quoted thing about working hours is somewhat misleading. Hours spent "at work" is very different from time spent being productive. Have you ever spent a day watching council workers digging a road up? Very enlightening!

It's all about the "work to live, or live to work" mentality, isn't it?

Just read the article and the reader comments, then scrolled to the bottom and realised this is just another Daily Mail expose...

The main point of the report suggests that the per-capita post tax income in the UK is over £35000...At first I thought 'you're joking' but when you take into consideration the massive salary and perk increases awarded to Senior Management of the major Corporations and Banks which are out of all proportion to the 'RPI increases' awarded to the overall workforce, it all makes sense..

My BAe Pension RPI increase this year amounted to just 24 pence for the full year, whilst the outgoing CEO of BAe left with a handshake of Salary and Shares amounting to over £5 Million. His pension increase using the same RPI Figure amounted to over £7000;  And the antics of the Royal Bank of Scotland just dont bear thinking about! That's just two examples of the great divide between the 'Haves' and the 'Have Nots...' Something desperately wrong somewhere.

In the meantime the city whizz kids are having a field day screwing around with the exchange rates...and no doubt amassing small personal fortunes with the Bank of England's blessing and Brown and his cronies are doing nothing...oh sorry...yes the Foreign Office have increased the number of advisers assisting Age Concern (Spain). So much for their statement that they had a package to help those ex-pats experiencing problems in Spain. Fortunately I do not include myself among those folks.

But anyway...Back on Thread...!

As for whether things are all that bad in Spain; my wife is over in the UK at the moment seeing her kids and cant wait to get back 'home.' Apart from when she's with her family she's hating every minute. Its cold, wet, expensive, unsociable and in the cities a dangerous place to be. Her trip to see her daughter 75 miles away was going to cost £44 for a weekend return by rail; thats more than we paid for her  flight to the UK; needless to say she went by coach; took the same amount of time and cost £10 when I booked it on line from here...!

She wanted to carry on her internet interests whilst she is away but my laptop is permanently broken so I suggested that she buy one of the new low priced netbooks from PC World; listed on line at £259, she bought it at the Portsmouth shop; final cost £415. So its no good saying we get ripped off in Spain; sure we do, but Britain definitely takes the biscuit for that...

So to anyone even contemplating coming out here to live I would suggest the following;

1) Do your homework; then do some more,

2) Moneywise you will need generally 50% more than you think you need.

3) Don't come over here thinking you can just walk into a job...unless you can offer something very specialised and speak fluent Spanish it aint gonna happen.

4) If you are bringing building, plumbing or decorating experience and hoping to set up in business, don't bother...we have   enough  Brit 'tradesmen' already and many going bust every day...

5) If your dream house hasn't been built yet, it probably never will be... so don't even think about off-plan or buy to rent..

Nuff Said...

Roberto: Have you ever spent a day watching council workers digging a road up? Very enlightening!

Actually yes: they are doing it in our village as we speak; in an effort to get work for people in the campo the local authorities have decided to renew the main drains and water supply pipes. In the two months since they started they have completely dug up two streets road and pavements each about 3.5 metres wide and no more than 100 metres long in total and laid the pipes. The new pipes have been covered over with loose scree and just left 'to settle' they say...They are now digging up another street. Problem is late October / early November is the rainy season up here and when it rains...it RAINS! I have absolutely no doubt that all the loose scree so carefully laid, levelled and flattened will all be washed down the hill and into the main road through the village!

But hey,what if it does? No Problema! We can do it all again!  And then of course we'll have the snow and it will be too cold to lay the concrete top dressing....!

But at least the authorities are doing something constructive. Here in Granada we have a brand new 15Kms Supertram System being installed and RENFE are working flat out on extending the AVE system from Seville to Granada. From Antequera this means a completely new route since the existing  trackbed to Granada is a horizontal and vertical switchback and has a 40kph limit much of the way.

In Britain...nada...zilch; one equivalent AVE route from a London Station which by rights should have been closed at nationalisation in 1948 and the old Eurostar Terminal at Waterloo is being allowed to decompose and collapse because 'it will cost too much to integrate it into the rest of the station'.

Capital spending by private companies in Spain may have just about dried up; look no further than the shortage of Hire Cars this summer, but State and Public spending is ongoing. The outlook is good; it may take a while but ...

Said it before; would I go back to the UK? Kicking and Screaming is the only way.

fb

As someone who owns both in the UK and in Spain, I think it time that I spoke up for my native country.  We bought in Spain so that in retirement we could spend half of the year in the sun (winter) and half in the UK (summer).  We felt that the UK was too cold for us in the winter and Spain too hot in the summer. 

Our place in Spain is comfortable and well furnished with all the accutriments of modern (UK) living and once retired we decided to spend some time in Spain.  Frankly the weather was not that much better than the UK, mostly rain, interspersed with some pleasant sunshine and a bit warmer, but still needing heating.  This summer has been spent at home in the UK (Kent) and has been fantastic!  Plenty of sunshine, but not too hot for us and above 25 degrees C most of the time with almost no rain.  Here we live pretty much in the country, but with our bus passes, busses every 10 mins and stops 200 yds away on the main road we can freely explore the county without fuel cost and the need to find/fund parking or fighting traffic.

As for income, the £35,000 quoted was household income (and didn't state gross or nett).  We don't get that, but with what we get from the state and our pension funds, just occasionally dipping into savings,we can just manage to keep both places afloat.  We live in a low crime area with excellent communications and now have a new high speed train service to the capital, should we desire to go.  Shopping when we do it is incomperable, in Spain we struggle to find what we want.

In all we have a comfotable life here in Kent (better than most I guess) and we just don't feel comfortable in Spain (although not because we have been burgled).  We don't know why, we just don't and in general, regret buying there.  Health issues will keep us away this winter, but the collapse of Spainish property prices preclude selling up, so we will just wait and see. 

In general, in spite of rampant PC and disingenuous politicians we find our lives better in the UK and it would cost us a lot less to turn up our heating in winter and not have to support our place in Spain.

Finally, the real point that I started to write this is that of buying a computer on line vs going to PC World.  A few weeks ago, I wanted an ethernet switch (lets not get too technical), but I decided the cheapest on the market was from Amazon (£17) that was until I discovered that it would cost me another £17 in postage & packing.  So I went back on line and saw that PC world offered the same product for £18.  OK, PC World have a store only 2 miles away and on the bus route.  Armed with my bus pass, there would be no p&p, but the cost in store would have been £28!  However, I discovered that I could order on line, but had the option of reserving the product and picking it up in store at £18.  How illogical is that? I am now the happy operator of multiple computers.

All in all our UK life is pretty good and our experience in Spain fails to match up.  Before buying a fixed Spanish "asset", we used to travel the world, and still could without the money pit, but it was our choice and we don't complain (it would be nice if we could get even a fraction of our money out though).  If you love Spain, we are very happy for you, but it's not for us.

Xetog

Yes, in lots of ways I'm inclined to agree with you. 

I have never spent July or August in Spain - too hot for the likes of me!!  However, most of my friends avoid going to Spain at the same time as myself - they think that I'm a jinx - as I always have rain.  My last holiday (have been back in the UK now for 3 weeks) was no exception!!  This summer, in England was really great, lots of BBQ's etc. 

That being said, I have no regrets buying in Spain.  However, I have come to realise in my part of Spain (unlike where I live in England) I could not practically manage without a car.  Where I live here there are great public transport links.  In my part of Quesada they have cancelled the bus routes near to my home ....... and as for the distance to the nearest train station......!!!  On the safety aspect sometimes I feel like a prison in a home with grilles over all the doors and window, but not so safe walking along some of the streets.  Not sure why, as the crime rate doesn't seem to be high.

I had tenants in my house (I'm not going to repeat the experiment again) but the amount of electric that they were using, both in the summer and winter, was higher than my UK electric bills!!  And my home in England is twice the size of the Spanish one!

I have studied Spanish for quite a few years - initially with the intention of living there - but am content to just have somewhere to go in Spain to "recharge the batteries" - because I enjoy the relaxed life style. 

There are crooks in every country - although very often the hard part is recognising them before it is too late!!

By the way, if anyone wants to avoid the rain I will be in Spain in January!!!

xetog

that's an interesting post with contrasting views fom foxbat's. Just goes to show that what's good for some isn't for others.

As someone who used to love Spain and tried to buy in Spain but fell victim to the dreadful Spanish justice system, I'm aware that my opinions are bound to be a bit one sided, (at least until I get justice?). Having said that, I have always in the past been very critical of the UK, (and still am in many ways), but ever since getting my head round the Spanish system, I realise just how good life can still be in the UK is if you live in a decent part of it. I would love warmer summers and less crowding/traffic, slower pace of life etc, but I realise there is a price for that, and on balance with all that's going on in Spain with regards corruption/lack of regulation/poor justice/rising costs etc,  I'm not sure if the pro's in Spain really would outway the cons any more for me?  Will always be a holiday destination for me though. 

Each to his/her own and like you, I wish all the best to those who have found Spain works for them. I always thought that was what I wanted also, but have had a real reality check in the last few years.

Foxbat: at least the authorities are doing something constructive...........State and Public spending is ongoing. The outlook is good

They're doing exactly the same here on the coast, and the exact same applies re: the rain. Nuts. And I'm not convinced that this kind of work is a good sign anyway. It's all part of Plan E (a New Deal?) I'm not an expert on politics or economics, but how is all this being funded? (Rhetorical)

Xetog: Shopping when we do it is incomperable, in Spain we struggle to find what we want

I'm sorry your Spanish adventure hasn't turned out as you would have hoped. I can't help but wonder if the above statement reveals a basic truth that you had to find out the hard way? If you cannot find what you want in Spain, perhaps Spain is not what you want? Living in, or even owning a property and regularly visiting, a foreign country is very different from holidaying there. Going abroad is usually about discovering and trying out new and different things. When we occasionally come across something familiar ("ooh, they've got chocolate fingers 'ere!" - Peter Kay) we're surprised and maybe delighted. But when we find ourselves lamenting the lack of, say, chocolate fingers, it's surely time to recognise that we're better off just staying home?!

Just re-read that, and think it may sound a bit rude or offensive, which wasn't my intention, so apologies. Just meant to say that Spain isn't for everyone, and there are pros & cons for both places.