What a good decision!!

Difficult to know how to start this thread without being rude!

Anyway, I read many of the posts and enjoy not only the experiences of ex-pats. good and bad but the knowledge it imparts in most cases.

However, I try not to feel sad, when I read about people counting the days and hours until they are able to get on that plane to come here for a period of time.
Maybe that´s the way they want it, maybe it´s like a big treat to get away from whatever conditions exist in the UK at any given time, only knowing that they have to return, albeit with a super tan that their neighbours will envy!

I have lived here permanently, for nearly five years. Went back to England last year for 12 days, the family treated us like visiting royalty but we felt claustrophobic!! Traffic jams, speed cameras everywhere, bad weather, etc.

My wife longed to see the Cotswolds. What happened? You guessed it, it rained on our fish and chips!!

I am proud to be English, not British, ENGLISH. I was born in the capital but it was very nice to smell the olives and concrete, when we landed back at Murcia airport.

Nowhere is perfect and the mañana attitude can be very frustrating, together with all the red tape, etc. but boy oh boy, did it make me appreciate my home here with an outlook of palm trees and a conservation area pine forest as a backdrop.

I wonder if any other ex-pats. who live here permanently feel the same way, or has Spain become just another country?

pilgrim

.......you were glad to smell olives and concrete????????

heavens above, i detest olives and concrete........ but then you were born in the capital!!

joking apart, i can imagine how you feel, its pouring with rain here again!, it's dull and cold, it's busy, and not a nice place to be.  I would love to spend a good deal of time in a warm climate with less traffic, a nicer way of life, and get of the hamster wheel!

 As for Spain though, not so sure now?  After a nightmare 6 years trying to get our deposit returned, after being well and truly shafted and then shafted again by the dreadful Spanish lack of regulation and slow justice, i can't help feeling bitter.  England seems a very 'common sense' country to me now, and i think i would always like to know i can return to the relative sanity of the english legal/planning/justice system if i need to?

I don't tive in Spain, yet , but have suffered the manana attitude in the UK with jumped up self important little people trying to make themselves look important. Also the tripe thrown at us by politicians and business people with hidden agendas.Add the terrible weather and I do not feel the UK is a very happy place to beat the moment. 
I am sure we will encounter things we do not like in Spain but generally I am sure we will feel as Pilgrim does.

I suppose, to be thruthful, I have unfair advantage over my fellow ex-pats., because my wife is Venezuelan, so Spanish is her first language.

This has meant of course, that stumbling blocks did not exist to a great extent!

In the past, as now, it is sometimes quite amusing and has in fact been a little offputting for some contractors and workmen, that have been contacted by me, to arrive, view the workload, then go into a rapid conversation with their partner(s), only to be interrupted by my wife in Latin American Spanish, if their conversation becomes a little detrimental to our requirements.

What a bonus this has been!

So, while the red tape here can be very frustrating, I think a lot of the problem is the language barrier.

I was a qualified archery coach in the UK. Brought my beautiful compound bow and all the equipment with me, only to realise that with a sport that can be very dangerous if conducted carelessly, the language barrier (I speak Spanglish to my wife)  meant it was a no no.

I must put an ad. in EOS.

Read a similar sort of letter a few weeks ago in one of the Sunday rags , saying how glad he and his family were to be over here rather than in England , (Manchester area if i remember rightly ) , and he listed the things he enjoyed and how happy they all were. The following week , he was slagged off by some English bloke writing things like "how dare you critcise England , you dont live here anymore" , and " stay in Spain , we dont want you here". How small minded can you get ? According to him , if we dont live there no more , we cant comment. I felt like writing in but then realised that the letter would be a very long one listing all the bad things about the UK these days and it either wouldnt be printed or would be edited and maybe not the whole story would be told. I've been over here for 4 1/2 yrs now and would'nt ever go back. And when i speak to family and friends when they come to stay with us , or on the phone , one thing i always say is that the UK looks far worse now i am on the outside looking in . Anybody agree ??????

I am hoping to find out for myself Dr. What I need is a Tardis to transport me into the future.Don't have one to spare do you ?

dr who

good to hear such positive comments. As you say, small minded opinions don't help anyone.  I think those who are happy should be encouraged to spread the good news as there is so much negative press about living on the costas at the moment.

Having said that, there are many people like us who have had a nightmare experience, trying to buy in Spain. Not because we were greedy, didn't do our homework, went in blind etc, but because we were let down by a system that allows cheats to prosper at all levels including some lawyers and judges. As long as those who are happy, understand this, then fine.

As is often the case, it depends to some degree on which side of the fence you sit. Many of us, so badly let down, just wanted a home in the sun, like most do. We didn't deserve this!

Acapulco , as you know i change assistants from time to time. You can be my next one as long as you are - Female , 21 ish , long legged , blonde , absolutely gorgeous etc etc .

Goodstich , you have had a nightmare and i am really sorry it turned out that way. We were lucky (up to a point) in that we had a very good bank , estate agent , solicitor  etc , and it all went smoothly. Our downer was that we got the builder from hell when we did our place up. Looking back , and hindsight is a wonderful thing , i should have got rid of him after a few weeks . But christmas was coming fast , we'd been living out of suitcases and living in muck and dust for too long and it might have been hard to get another one in quickly and then who was to say he would have been any better. I now know of 3 very very good builders who live in this village but sadly i didnt know them at the time . If only i could turn the clock back.........................

Cue Dr Who tardis jokes

dr who

oh yes, save me a place in the tardis (next to the leggy blonde assistant please).

So much could have been better in Spain, if only the powers that be, had done the right thing? The trouble is, the powers that be in Spain are often the worst offenders, so it spreads downwards, unhindered in many cases.

I think the tide is turning now that many in those positions who shot themselves in the foot are starting to limp a bit!  Not least some of the dreadful UK agents who must have thought they were in paradise with Spains lack of clamping down on sharks.

In the mean time, i'll paint the sun on my window, and go and buy some  sangri..........cheers!

Having been here for almost 15 years off and on - 8 permanently - I can honestly say I would not like to be in UK right now.
In fact, I couldn't think of anything worse that having to move back......
I love the people here, the culture, the weather, the lifestyle - boy I could just go on and on....... and I don't even mind my drive to work in the mornings...... :-)  Infact the only thing I miss is my family
Yes, times are difficult at the moment (credit crunch, exchange rate etc) - but aren't they everywhere, and for most people?  I for one know where I'd rather be  ..... now .... where's my tinto de verrano - I have to thank my lucky stars for what I've got (yes I believe in fate) and where I am now (by doing lots of really hard work) !    Enjoy! xx Life is what you make it - wherever you make it - and I hope you can all be happy too

Sorry - edited to correct a spelling mistake - looked like I'd had a few too many tinto's!

This message was last edited by buzylizzie on 9/9/2008.

buzylizzie

Lifes not just  'what you make it', it can also be  'what others make it' .   

If not for us, please spare a thought for those who for whatever reason do not live in a just world, however hard they try. (we all live in relative paradise compared to many)

We have a strong case now and a good lawyer, so all we need is a straight judge!

................now where's that Sangria!!!!!

Hi Goodstitch
Nice to hear from you again. Looks like you might be getting somewhere at last? I do hope so. 
Wish you all the luck in the world

P.S. I'll need to make you a new posts chair soon LOL!!

This message was last edited by Candyfloss on 9/9/2008.

Goodstitch
My post wasn't intended to offend anyone - and everyone please accept my apologies if that's how it seemed
I wish you all the luck in the world ... by the sounds of it it's not been easy for you. 
I know how lucky I am to be in my position today, and I can assure you it has not been easy but very worthwhile. In fact, the house I am currently living in was delayed by years - the last two because the mayor was arrested for issuing the planning permissions illegally etc., etc, and he is now under arrest, meanwhile we have at last been given the permissions required to move in.
Things do take time out here (and time and time and even more time) and it is very frustrating indeed.
I pray regularly for those less fortunate than myself - and yes, I know there are many! I  know that we all live in relative paradise - even those in UK - having spent a few months living in Palestine and seeing the children without shoes etc I can never now forget!
I wish you all the luck in the world, and 'hope that as you now have a strong case and a good lawyer things will move your way very  quickly.
Anyway - back to the post - does anyone else like living here?

Hi Buzylizzie
You are so lucky to be living there. We wish we had done it years ago now with hind sight. Still, 2 kids in college at the mo but we hope to do it when that's all over with. Kids want to come too so that's what keeps us going. You haven't offended anyone so don't worry about it.
Just one question? This tinto de verrano everyone talks about. I've seen it in the shops but what is it exactly??

Thank you Candyfloss.

Tinto-de-verrano - well - in a word it's simply gorgeous!!

Actually it's red wine, lemonade and a slice of lemon or lime. It can also be made with red wine and lemon fanta.

It is now also sold by the bottle ready made - I like Sandemans the best  very cheap too

It's translated as "summer wine" ("wine from the summer") but beware - it looks and tastes like pop but it definitely has a kick behind it  
Try it - I'm sure you'll love it. If you're in UK try making your own ... and don't forget to let us know what you think

Cheers Buzy
I usually buy the sangria but will defo try that next visit. 
I'll have a go here and let you know, sounds good. .
Still trying to get warm after getting back from Spain. Sooooooooooooooo depressed and looking at flights again.

OK Candyfloss -  just to cheer you up - it started raining here a few days ago,and it's been off and on - although very lightly - ever since!
I fear the summer has finished early....
I have to book a flight back to UK very soon but I've been avoiding it as much as possible - now I fear the later I leave it the colder it will be
If the weather brightens up a bit I promise not come on here bragging .....

Candyfloss

Hi, and thanks for wishing me luck. It's all in the lap of the gods now ......well a Spanish judge anyway!  We have our case coming up next April. Still lots of  'if's' and 'buts', but we have a lawyer who has won cases against the developers we are up against. We won't give up, we have several massive breaches of contract that would have been sorted out long before getting to a court situation in the UK ....Ho-Hum.

buzylizzie

thanks also for your kind words. No offence taken, i'm just a bit prickly after years of working so hard to try and buy a little place in the sun, and then years of trying so hard to get most of our lifes savings back from a rogue developer. So glad to hear you got your place sorted at long last. You sound like you have been through it as well. Fingers crossed for all those who have been, or still are in a similar position to yours before getting it sorted or mine now. 

sorry for going of thread with my grumbles.

Hi All,
Been neglecting posting lately,work is interfering with my social life at the moment....
This is a subject very close to my heart as i am vey bitter about the state of the UK,not that after 6 years i ever long to go back there to live but for the fact that i feel a loathing for the place i used to call home.
I am very happy here and although you should never say never i hope that i can live out my days in Spain,i have never once looked back since the day i landed here.
I am English or Bristish or whatever the majority rule is there now but no,i am not proud of the fact at all!!!  i used to be the most patriotic person you could meet and then i ran out of reasons to be so.
It is interesting to know that Ex Partiot or Ex Pat for short actually means that you have shed your eligence to your country of birth, this does not bother me one bit.
In Spain children can be children,they dont have the egg and spoon race cancelled due to health and safety or risk assesment.
Children can play freely without fear of knife attack or shooting.
Children learn family values not how to create their own as soon as they hit pubity.....
Yes the system can be very slow and frustrating and it can be like living in the dark ages at times but for me this is the appeal,i take this as a trade off,i think the Spanish people are by far some of the friendliest i have ever met,the climate is great,the food is great,and on and on and on.....
With the Eastern block invading the UK from all angles i fear the worse if it could get any worse.
I do have a trip planned for october back but it is only to see friends and family and then adios and back home,after all, my friends only spend half the time moaning about the place anyway,when i left the UK  a lot of my friends asked why,now they dont ask anymore.
I love Spain and feel proud that in four years i can apply for a Spanish passport.
I know this is not PC but,i am in Spain i dont need to be.
Viva Espana..........

Yes Pilgrim...............I'm with you..............been here nearly 6 years now and would not bother going back to UK if it wasn't for family. And family and friends are all I miss.

Goodstitch, you know I feel for you and wish you the best.

Funny, just got an eyeonspain email about people who move back. The wife and I have been here 2 years and are hoping to stay long term. Unfortunately that depends a lot on work, company is, surprise surprise, restructuring, if she still has a job at the end it will probably involve relocation back to Germany. We'd love to stay but unfortunatly not in a postion to give up the job.

Two things about Europe, when you move you have to learn a new language and adjust to a new culture. Once you learn to accept it isn't like home adjustment becomes much easier. Personally I'd say the biggest frustration is the language barrier, if you can conquer that you can fit in very well.

Interesting thread. To return to Pilgrim's original question, "I wonder if any other ex-pats. who live here permanently feel the same way, or has Spain become just another country?" To be perfectly honest (since there's a lot of that going on here!), to me it is pretty much just another country. People often ask me why Spain, and I struggle to come up with a better explanation than just because it's where I am, and I can't think of a better option right now. (I can elaborate and explain why we came here originally, but that's another story and no longer particularly relevant). 
There are many things I don't like about Spain, but on balance, there are more things I dislike about the UK, which is why I wouldn't really want to move back there. Overall I don't really dislike Spain, but neither am I in love with it. I would love to try somewhere else, but where in the EU (to avoid visa restrictions etc.) can I go where the weather is agreeable and the cost of living comparable, and where I won't have a language problem to conquer all over again? I agree with Rob about cracking the language - to a certain extent. But even if you attain a reasonable level of fluency in Spanish, I believe there are still fundamental cultural differences between northern Europeans and southerners, which can be even harder to overcome. Someone mentioned about the relative sanity of the UK compared to Spain (was it Goodstich?), and it's a very good point. I think I would like to try Germany, or Denmark for example; culturally we are much closer to them, for me at least the Germanic languages seem less challenging, but at the end of the day, the higher cost of living in those countries means I would find it very hard to attain the standard of living I currently have here, plus it rains an awful lot up there!

Roberto, you mention Germany as a possible relocation country.Coincidentally, we spent a week in Munich in August. Mainly to get a little respite from the heat.

The first thing that struck us was the cleanliness of the city. Absolutely spotless!

The second thing was the lack of a language barrier! Virtually everybody speaks English as a second language.

As you say, the cultural attitudes were very similar.

We took a train ride to Salzburg in Austria. I think we enjoyed the visual experiences of the countryside on the journey, more than the city? It was picturebook perfect.

Daft point maybe but even repaired areas of road where work had been carried out were carefully shaped to precise square or rectangular shapes, to the exact height, not the haphazard lumps of asphalt dumped over piles of earth like we experience here, waiting for vehicles to flatten it level.

It was a culture shock, yes, I liked what I saw and enjoyed the friendliness of the people BUT, BUT, I came to Spain, firstly for health reasons and the added bonus (don´t laugh) that I loved the way that most days it was possible to sit at an outside cafeteria, with a parasol overhead, order a caf'é con leche or a cold beer maybe and watch the world walk by, in peace and tranquility and in our case, gaze at the beautiful Mar Menor.

Maybe the lumps in the road ´aint so bad after all ?? !!

We've only been here a few months and so it's probably a little early to say we would never move back to the UK, but I think it highly unlikely. When we moved out here for many of the reasons already mentioned in other posts, we sold up completely and took the view that if we didn't settle here there are too many other places in the world to try than go back to a country that we felt increasingly disappointed with.

The language barrier here is a frustration but I am working really hard at my spanish and I am beginning to see progress. We chose a predominantly spanish town, and absolutely love it here and at the moment feel as if we have found our home.

A big plus side of the move here is that my health is significantly improved already. I used to joke with my friends that living in Sheffield was bad for my health, well it looks like it was closer to the truth than I knew. I used to have problems from asthma and arthritis which dominated my days, now I rarely give them a second thought.

Roberto

sounds like you have hit the nail on the head.  I should think there are as many things to love and hate in Spain or the UK.  Just depends on what each individual finds more important to them. 

I've always loved Spain from a holidaymakers point of view. I love the climate, the people, the landscape, the wine (not wild about the food), and the sense of working to live, not the other way round as is often the case in the UK.  However, having had bitter experience of the way Spain is run, i'm not sure that living there would be any less stress free in the end?

We clearly can't have it all ways, and to rubbish either country is i feel small minded.  All a matter of  pro's and cons.

Pilgrim: peace and tranquility???? This goes to show that we all have different perspectives, and probably a lot depends on your chosen location etc., but for me Spain is probably the noisiest, most chaotic place I've been after India. Spaniards in general love to make a lot of noise, and are mostly immune to other people's noise. 
Don't get me wrong, I'm a city boy and like to be in the thick of it - preferably living in an 8th floor penthouse though! When I lived in such a place in the centre of Palma, I used to love getting out of the city at weekends to go to a remote corner of the island (Mallorca) where you can find some of the most perfect, tranquil & deserted bays in the Med and truly relax. But, it would be impractical to actually live somewhere like that. And even living eight floors above the hub-bub, venturing out exposed one to the constant and needless horn blowing and yelling people. Put two Spaniards in a room together (especially at a community meeting!!) and you have a level of decibels that is sufficient to get a bar closed down if it is eminating from the hi-fi unit. Where I live now I am constantly subjected to mopeds with no silencers, the aforementioned needless horn blowing, noisy pool users, uncontrolled screaming children, uncontrolled barking dogs, shouting men in the cafe next door, weekend revellers enjoying their botellon in the street until 5 or 6 in the morning, bin lorries in the middle of the night....I could go on but you get the point. No, for me peace and tranquility are two very good reasons for thinking of leaving Spain!
By the way, love Munich, and everywhere else I've seen in Germany, and what's more the property is so cheap! Got me really thinking!

J&N: many people refer to the health benefits associated with the climate, and I don't dispute it. I know I certainly get depressed with the weather in the UK and feel much happier in a sunny, warm environment. It's great to hear that your ailments do not trouble you in your new home, too. But, and it's a big but, a large number of expats eventually end up heading "home" precisely for health reasons. I believe the Spanish health system is on a par with, if not better than, most other EU countries, but at the end of the day, if the sh1t hits the proverbial fan, there's no getting round the fact that dealing with a serious illness in a foreign language is a daunting and frankly scary prospect. If I found myself in a hospital in any northern European country, I know the medical staff there would be fluent in English, but here in Spain you have to accept that you are highly unlikely to find that to be the case. And even if language does not prove to be a barrier, it's a fact of life that most of us want to be close to family and friends when things go pear shaped. And sadly, it's also a fact of life that as we age, the likelehood of serious illness becomes an increasing possibility. 

Goodstich: what can I say? I agree 100% with every single word of your post (except the food maybe)  Wonders never cease!

Following on from Pilgrim getting me wondering about Germany, I found this today:

The laws of Germany are entirely different to what you might be used to.  In most countries you are free to do as you wish provided it doesn't contravene the law.  Basically, German law operates the other way around.  Everything is illegal unless there is a law allowing it.  You will see guests arriving on say a camping site and looking at the notice on the board to see what they are allowed to do.  If it doesn't say that BBQ's are allowed then they are not permitted.

Each area has it's Ordnungsamt.  (In the local town hall)  This is a department which makes sure that everyone is keeping their garden tidy, dealing with their rubbish correctly and generally making sure that everything is spick and span.  Just look around you - the grass is cut, the litter is cleared, everything is painted and so on.

Do not allow your property to become unsightly or your neighbours will complain and you will have a visit from them.

 SOLD!!!!!!
There was a funny rumour doing the rounds years ago that Germany was buying the island of Mallorca (since about 50% of it's residents were already German). Ahh, if only! A beautiful Mediterranean island in the sun, run by Germany and with German property prices. Now that's my idea of paradise!

Roberto,
I could subscribe to that way of life in a heartbeat!!
If only they had the climate??

only troube is you must have blonde hair and blue eyes or else you know what happens to people who dont conform........????
The prople's Republic of China has similar rules.........