Rough justice yet again!

Morning folks

well i'm almost lost for words this morning. Our very clear case of theft from a developer and UK agent reached court in mid April this year, after nearly seven years of being swindled, and justice is still not in sight!

 The  developer who's in court constantly for doing the same to so many, owes millions and is obviously on the verge of going bust. Our chance of justice very much depends on the developer not going bust before being found guilty. Despite the judge being very aware of this, we have now heard he's not made a decision and has now gone on holiday until september!!

So, it will take close on six months minimum just for the judge to make up his mind on a case that couldn't be clearer, and depends on a very fragile company not going bust any day.  Our lawyer says there is nothing we can do, we are in the hands of the judge.

What can you say?. If nothing else it  confirms everything i've said in the past.

I'm so angry about this.

Well we all know who the Developer is !! 

As you know unfortunatley it will not make a blind bit of difference when do you do win your case.

They simply don't pay up and ignore the judgement. Thus forcing you to have to go to auction the embargoed

property. Apparently this takes another year to 18 months for an auction that take a few minutes. And what then

when/if the embargoed proerty does not sell ?

Of course there is always the chance (but very slim) that someone may wish to buy the embargoed property before you get to auction in which case you would get a lot of your money back eventually if the sale went thru and I believe that is about the only way in recent times people have managed it.

And as to whether that Developer  goes bust before then - Well they should be bust now and the only reason they are not is that they are being propped up by their Major Creditors who in turn  are being propped up by the ECB.  Who of course only have money because of our contributions from the UK, Germany and France (Does anyone else in Europe put more in the pot than they take out ?)

What happened to the Spanish property scandal petition ? Were not Spain supposed to be threatened with contribuiton suspension unless they started to make some efforts to sot all this nonsense out ?

Do we see any evidence of any improvements ?

What happened to the Spanish property scandal petition ?

I would certainly encourage Susan ( the promoter of the Spanish Property Scandal Petition) to ask permission to the signers in order to direct same petition to some other national actors:

- Media, Law Society, National Institute for Consumers...

It might add.

Best,

Maria

By the way Suzanne: congratulations on such a wonderful work!

Yes I agree Susan has done a fantastic job with this and my comments were in no way aimed at her.

She has perfectly logged all that is wrong and it is absoultey clear to any decent fair minded people

how wronged people have been

My frustration as many others is why is the EEC not carrying out its threat with Spain. ? Is there a deadline ?

The simples solution to all this would be for the EEC to withold say a £1Billion or so from Spain's handouts and set up a compensation fund for all those of us swindled. Is this just too simple an idea for MEPs to handle ?

An update: Our Petition has been accepted as 'admissable' by the EU Petitions Committee in Brussels, and has been registered. The EU PC has asked the EU Commission to start an initial investigation into the issues regarding Bank Guarantees & reimbursement. There is apparently new legislature, & I'm waiting for more details. Of couse, there are many more issues to be dealt with, but this is a very good start.

I'm also awaiting an update from the Law Society in England, who have agreed to address the Consejo General de la Abogacia Espanola regarding the information I've passed on to them & complaints re lawyers.

It's impossible to count the time I've spent with the media, government departments, FCO, newspapers & numerous journalists.  I've spent many hours on the 'phone/emails with one journalist for the Telegraph, who is still very eager to get many of our experiences published but the Editor refuses to date, saying that this has already been well covered! 

There is hope that our questions will be addressed in the House of Commons soon - another battle, but this is way overdue.  The Government has involved itself in the property problems in Cyprus, & it's high time they did so regarding Spain.  I'll do my best to get another Newsletter out to all petitioners asap, & when I've heard back from the Law Society.  Many thanks for all your support.

Our Petition remains open & I'm updating the EU with all new signatures & comments.  Will update the site with relevant info asap.   Oh...to have a life!!!

www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

johnmfranci5

yes, a huge well to Suzanne for all her time and money spent trying to bring justice to so many wronged, which would in turn help Spain in reduce its poor reputation in that area.

You are sadly very accurate in descibing those we are up against, our situation and the likely outcome. A compensation idea is the only fair way of dealing with it now for us and many others treated so badly. It would also hopefully create a much needed deterrant through a change in some laws and implentation in others, which in turn would be a bonus for everyone on the right side of justice and the country on the whole in the long term......will it happen though?, sounds far to much like common sense for Spain?

Sadly, the EEC, Brussels,Strasbourg is more corrupt than Spain.

They are powerless, or rather choose to be, for their on perpetual existence.

An article in the Daily Telegraph yesterday was a good example. As we all know the BNP returned two candidates as MEP's  - We can think of them whatever we like but they have highlighted the stupidity of the EU in their first day.

Apparently, the two BNP MEP's had decided that their salary of 80,000 pounds, plus expenses of 250,000 plus 271 pounds per day for attending, was far too much. So they decided they are going to pay a proportion of their salary back into their constituencies and fund things like; a St Georges Day Festival plus educational activities.

But, they have been told by the EU that they will be thrown out if they waste taxpayers money. They were given a list of items that they were allowed to spend their expenses on, this included, Cigars, Caviar, Chapagne, Flowers, Chocolates, Expensive Hotels etc. The list was endless, yet they would be commiting a crime if they spent it on the people who elected them.

So don't expect any help from Europe when it comes to Justice.

Goodstich, I felt really sick  and angry on your behalf when I read your post. The utter contempt  and arrogance these people treat the victims brings a shame on them, their profession and Spain itself.  We had a bad experience but eventually got our house and our experience compared to some was a breeze although it didn't feel like it at the time.  I know how I felt when it looked like we would lose our money and our house, if it had happened I don't know what I would have done. I hope you and everyone else in this terrible position receive the favourable outcome you deserve, sooner rather than later.

Regards, Poppyseed

I entirely agree with your sentiments about the corruption in the EEC but I feel Susan's work really does need all our utmost encouragement. She is afterall  willing to do all the legwork and organisation. And it is an avenue possibly that one day just might lead to us getting some recompense.

I believe the EEC has had some influence on Spain in the past - a recent example I belive being the illegal capital gains tax they were putting on foreign residents which I believe they are beind forced to refund.

Given that MEPs are so unpopular in the UK you would have thought one of them would have liked to champion this cause to gain some votes at the very least. I did see a letter aobut this subject a few months ago by Robert Aitken but I have no idea what he has actually done about it.

I don't know about Robert Aitken, but, I would certainly see Susan as a more potent force than any politician with vested interests.

Hi Goodstich, I'm so angry that you have repeatedly come across such atrocities.

Hi Goodstitch in your message you say

Well we all know who the Developer is !!   -

I don't..  There seem to be so many dishonest developers, builders, agents etc I am at a loss to keep up with them all.  Are you allowed to tell us who the developer is or would it be libel.  M11

Dear Goodstich,

sorry to hear your news, but will a couple more months make much difference?

"he has not yet made up his mind" - sounds rather like a depressing foretaste. You must be shattered.

does he have a history, perhaps even a reputation for making good decisions, does your brilliant lawyer have an analysis?

does such a thing exist?

can a judge's performance be checked?

are there no winners out there?

someone must know these things

can it be featured as part of a name and praise/not feature?

keep up the pressure.

Regards

Norman

Hi all

thanks for your kind words and support. It seems we can do nothing but wait. I don't know how some judges sleep at night, knowing full well the stress they put people under?  They obviously don't give a toss,  and once again, they get away with it because they can, as is often the case throughout the system. We all know it's very wrong, we all know many of us are cheated through no fault of their own. Will it ever be right?. Will it ever be fair?. Who knows?.   With enough pressure I feel it could improve, but while people are happy to excuse the wrongs because ''this is Spain'' nothing will change much. I wonder how many who feel they are ok, realise what they might face if wronged, and for whatever reason need to seek justice?. .......I doubt it, you couldn't make it up!!

normamsands

yes, the timing could well be crucial to us due to the financial position of the developer. The judge is very aware of this, which makes the situation unfair almost beyond belief. 

Suzanne:

I can see what a great effort you have made so far, when I was suggesting: media, Law Society and National Institute for Consumers I was refering to the Spanish side directly: Spanish media, Spanish Law Society directly and Spanish National Institute for Consumers.

Not that you have ( very well deserved) the admission of the EU, it will make a stronger call on these institutions. I am sure.

Best,

Maria

Dear Goodstich,

"unfair" or just part of the long established system.

If the nationals are quite happy with their system which they fully understand, what possible point is there in a few Brit' victims trying to change it????????????

If they do not understand or want honesty, justice and fairness, how can you force it upon them?

I see little point in wasting my little pension on adding to an endless lawyer feeding machine, with less chance of winning than buying a lottery ticket (even one that pays out prizes).

If there are hundreds of success stories out there they seem to be very shy and don't come forward.

Is it time perhaps to accept what the long experienced pundits say and just go with the flow?

Best of luck since that is what you seem to be reduced to.

Regards

Norman

Dear Goodstitch

Sadly, it appears that no amount of protesting re the injustice caused to many of our fellow Brits (and others) has had much effect in rectifying these situations or providing compensation to the victims.  When you write 'This is Spain' I am reminded of the many times I have heard this over the 10 years we have visited the country. 

We bought a run-down town house near Mora de Ebre in Catalunya 7 years ago from one of the few honest estate agents we encountered whilst searching for our 'dream' property.  We lived in it quite happily during school holidays (I was a teacher) and, when I took early retirement, we spent a year there full-time with our 16-year-old son.  However, after a year, it became clear that our son was not going to be able to secure himself a permanent job as a) jobs were/are reserved for the locals and it's very diffricult for 'foreigners' to get into the system b) although our son is good at learning languages, it was going to take years for him to become fluent in both Castellano AND Catalan...necessary in an area where there are few Brits.  So, when we realised the property market was beginning to slide, we put our place on the market and were lucky enough to sell it at a good price.  If we hadn't sold it when we did, we would still have it now, over 2 years later.

Earlier this year the estate agent (husband and wife, now good friends) who sold us our place in Catalunya got in touch with us to let us know they were now living back in the UK.  This came as a surprise as they had lived in Catalunya for 10 years and told us they were never coming back to the UK!  To cut a long story short, it turns out they have been well and truly 'stitched up' by the corrupt Spanish system.  While happily going about their business of selling properties in the area to both Brits and Spanish, they were being 'robbed' without their knowledge by people they had trusted to help run the business.  The whole scenario involves officials to the highest level in the area and has resulted in our friends losing absolutely everything they owned and had built up....to the tune of over 500,000 euros!  They are fighting as hard as they can to get back what is rightfully theirs but it bacame clear early on that they had to be in the UK to do this. At the moment, they are living in a safe place where even we can't know where they are as they begin to name those involved.  If anyone is interested to know a little of what has happened to them, you can see their ongoing story on You Tube under the heading BHtheTRUTH sub-heading Water Cut Off. The more hits they get, the better, as it is also being looked at by high officials in Spain!

So, why do we keep returning to Spain, knowing what we know?  Because, as our estate agent says, "The average man-in-the-street Spaniard is a great person...kind, friendly, helpful, cheerful etc etc" and it's the nearest place to us where we can get so much sun!  What we must also remember is, most of us that spend time in Spain rarely get involved with or understand the politics or economics of the country and, as such, are not really affected by it until things go wrong for us. We, ourselves, will continue to go to Spain to enjoy all the good things available, in return spending our euros there and behaving in the same friendly, kind, helpful way as our Spanish neighbours.  However, in light of what we have learnt through our estate agents, our research and what we read on EOS, we have been put off buying another property there.  For the moment, anyway, we have decided to rent a property every winter for about 6 months (maybe more, maybe less).  By doing this we may even be able to help one or two of our fellow Brits pay the mortgage on a property they would, otherwise, find difficult to manage!

Goodstitch, I really can't believe this at all. How much more cr*p is going to be thrown at you?  I would be amazed if Aifos survive the summer.  Is it possible to sue a judge in Spain?  If he has ruined your chances of getting your money back then surely some action should be taken against him?

This is terrible.

Until the legal system in Spain improves and consumer rights honoured I think that foreign money will continue to find other places to go.

It's a shame really but when decent people like yourself have to suffer in this way it really makes me very angry.

Justin

Goodstitch..

Forgive me. After reading Justin's reply to you I realised that I was so intent on relaying my friends' bad experiences in Catalunya that I neglected to let you know we truly sympethise with you.  We can only begin to imagine the stress you've been under throughout all the time you have been trying to get compensation.  Most people don't realise just how far up the line corruption reaches in Spain. Our friends weren't even told the date of their first court case!  Judgements were made against them which they only found out about after the event!  Of course, it doesn't help you to know that others have been duped by the Spanish legal system but it may offer some little comfort to know that our friends are pursuing their case both in the UK and in Spain until they get justice.  You never know, it could rock a few boats! 

I also forgot to mention that 'ordinary' local Spaniards in the area  have been very sympathetic about our friends' plight and have made it known they are angry at what has happened.

            Mags

Justin

thanks for your kind thoughts and understanding of our situation. I can barely believe it also?  After seven years, we are let down the most by the very people who's job it is to serve justice.  

It's got worse today sadly.  I've just read on another site this morning that Aifos have now filed for protection against creditors which is the start of the end, so short of a miracle the judges six month delay on a decision looks to have cost us everything we have fought for.

meggie

Thankyou also  for your kind thoughts.

I agree, I think the average Spaniard would be outraged. Before we bought, we Spent quite a few holidays touring Spain and meeting the locals.  One of the things I loved about Spain was the people I met. I found most of them genuine friendly people with a good sense of humour and a shared sense of what's important in life. Considering neither my wife or I speak much Spanish, they were also very patient!

I wish your friends the best of luck in their fight for justice. They really sound like they have been through hell.

I can't begin to explain how angry I am this morning. It's unfair beyond belief how badly those cheated are treated by the Spanish authorities when all we want is what is rightfully ours.

As  you may be aware AIfos yesterday filed for protection from its creditors.

In have asked EOS team to start a main thread about this so all info/posts can be collated in

1 place.

Thks john.

I

Let's see if the creditor's meeting is now accepted by the Judge. It is like the 3rd or 4th time Aifos apply for the creditor's meeting.  Related to this, I rad yesterday that buyers in Martinsa without Bank Guarantee and with no house are going to be first paid ( out of a majority consensus of creditors) Real good news as it is also a precedent for other unsolvency procedures, such as....Aifos for example.

Let's keep fighting. Law is there.

MAria

Dear Maria,

"Let's keep fighting. Law is there."

How can this be true if there are no success stories to post?

How can it be true if all the experienced professionals on the forum say otherwise?

Where is the evidence?

Where are the lawyers offering "no win no fee"?

My natural caution and my limited pension do not allow wasted money on lawyers fees, or anything else.

So where is the proof and guarantee that it would be worthwhile?

Regards

Norman

Hi goodstich,

I would like to add my sympathies along with all the others, I don't know what your story is, but to get as far as the judge and then it's another waiting game must be horrendous for you.

Regards Kathy

Well the cynic in me tells me the judge is a party to all this and as corrupt as they come. Good luck Goodstich.

Regards, Poppyseed

Iagree it seems there is no justice in spain as soon as you get over one hurdle the goal posts change. Not that it helps but Goodstich i wish you well on your search for justice. Just saw this in thesurinenglish     A... S...   has bought the BYBLOS hotel and looking to snap up other properties. Perhaps you ought to write to our new member of the house of lords as he seems to be hoping to benefit from all the misery afios has caused........you couldn't make it up!!!!

thanks again for all the good wishes.

jamesyvonne

yes, it feels like being in the right means very little in Spain. Being in the money is a different story!

Poppyseed

there's no excuse is there, for not reaching a decision in 3 months!   The court knows how fragile the developers situation is. I'm still amazed they feel it's ok to treat us so badly. They are very aware of how we were cheated.

I love Spain and own property there

Sadly as bad as this stuation is , someone looks like they will lose their deposit and be left with a large legal fee is probably one of many hundreds if not thousands

Thankfully the spirit of Goodstich44 is a credit to him/her as at least someone somewhere must be listening while hundreds more cases get swept beneath the carpet.

I fear that this is Spains intention of resolving the total mess they have created  in as much as many will give up the fight because of  hopeless situations like this.

How in anyway is this the way to treat British people who took Spain almost like a second home for all of these years

How is this the way to treat anyone if fact thats inflicts so much hardship and pain. People who simply put trust in a legal and banking system not in some way outer Mongolia but within the European Union

I might add a European Country that has received massive funding for its economy and now shits of those that contributed.

They should not receive 1 Penny more until the whole system shows that Spain has a credible legal and banking system that honours agreements and upholds the law.

The law is there so make them uphold it..

As I said.  I love Spain but  this sector of Banks/Solicitors and corruption are a cancer that if not stopped then I fear for its future

As hard at it is I hope the British spirit will prevail and the fight continues.

More people like Goodstich 44 MUST keep bringing their cases to the headlines of the media.To give up is not an option as this way corruption wins

Spain will not change. It has to be made to change

Boycott    . Holidays in Spain

Stop         Buying in Spain.

Stop         Buying Spanish products

Hurt them that hurt so many then and only then will Spain be a place that so many of us love and this cancer is terminated.

Hi Chimps

thanks for your kind words of encouragement. I think you are right, Spain will not change without outside pressure hurting it in whatever form required. I have always loved the country also, and would love to see it in a better situation, but while the system is so wrong, and being run by people who wouldn't know justice if they fell over it, it's hard to see the change happening that would benifit everyone trying to do the right thing.

We have to believe in justice don't we, as we have to believe in right over wrong.  I have thought all along that despite everything, if we use a good lawyer we would see justice in the end. I feel this week though that our seven year battle has been all but lost. The bad guys we can fight against, and it looked like we had won, but the system looks to have made it impossible?

We had our day in court three months ago, after a year delay by the court, following a several year battle to even get the developer to court. Our lawyer put forward a very strong case along side our signed contract, leaving no doubt we were clearly cheated out of our life's savings, and the developer even made an offer before the case was heard, but due to the lack of regulation even that is not safe to accept, so we had to rely on our embargo on a property, which would would come in to action when we hopefully won our case.

Since then, much to my dismay the judge delayed a decision until September at least, and in the meantime the developer has started bankruptcy proceedings, which i'm fairly sure renders our embargo useless. So unless I am mistaken that's it, we will just be at the back of a long line of creditors, so will get  nothing!!

What more could we do?  What more can we do?  I won't give up trying, but I do feel pretty low. I really  have given it my best shot.