PLEASE SIGN THIS PETITION!

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/spanishbankguarantees.html

THANK YOU! 

This petition is a great idea.  Anyone having problems using their bank guarantee to have their deposits returned to them should sign this petition.

Thanks for posting it on here Tish.

Justin

This is an excellent idea Tish, I have signed it and hope everyone else does.

The lady behind this petition has been treated appallingly by the Court in Spain. I know her personally and she is an inspiration to all of us in this battle to get justice in Spain. I hope many people will sign this petition. 

Thank you Justin and andenca for your support! 

 I am new to this website and had a little local difficulty in putting the petition on !  But here is my preamble...

Has your bank guarantee failed you?
Guarantee dishonoured: result - lost savings and no property!
Can’t get your deposit back?

Do you want your deposit back?
Action is needed against banks when their guarantees are not honoured.

I am one of those would-be purchasers caught up in the Bank Guarantee fiasco: the guarantee is supposed to be for our, the consumer’s, protection when things go wrong. In reality we have been left at the mercy of the developer’s and Town Hall’s foul practices. We are in danger of losing substantial savings, and there being no property to enjoy at the end.

I can’t sit still.

It’s my belief that there are a huge number of us in the same predicament. The Bank of Spain, as reported by El Pais and quoted on Kyero claims not to have received many complaints. We need to act.

So, to protest, I’ve organised a web petition which I intend to send to the Governor of the Bank of Spain as soon as possible. Under the heading of ‘Buying off-plan in Spain? Spanish banks should honour guarantees’ it can be found at the address shown in Tish's mailing earlier.  (As I'm new I can't give an e-address yet). 
It is being hosted by GoPetition. Please take a look.

The petition is specifically focussed and worded so that anyone who has been, is now, or is likely to be involved in, recouping their deposits through the use of a bank guarantee will be able to sign. I need your support – unity is strength and all that.

For anyone unfamiliar with a web-petition, and for reassurance, let me explain that it has two elements – a public list and a private list. The public facts collected will show only your name, country/region, and date. If you wish, even your name can be hidden although this is not advised. The facts that will be withheld from public view are those which you are able to give re the names of the developer and development, the names of the bank and the legal status of the build. These facts will be hidden (for legal reasons) and made known only to me as the author of the petition and to the Governor of the BoS (of course!).

Importantly, there is also a box for your Comments. You can make these public if you wish. You have just 500 characters (not words) to use here. This is the opportunity to give the petition some succinct wellie. Or not - you can ask for your comments to remain publicly hidden if you prefer. The GoPetition home page explains how their system works.

If you agree with the above, sign the petition AND write directly to the Governor of the BoS.


Advertising this petition.

I need your help here. I’m alerting the UK national press and have succeeded in getting the attention of a couple of journalists. Justin has kindly offered to support it on this site. Michael Cashman (MEP) has agreed to publicize it too. The problem does not lie only within the UK so if anyone would be willing to alert foreign presses to the petition I would be grateful.  My local paper has expressed an interest in writing a column. Local papers have large readerships and it would be good if, after signing the petition, you would send a copy of the petition preamble to your local paper letting them know of its existence. Who knows? We might get a few signatures that way. I hope the petition will hit hard.

I’d be grateful for any suggestions and support. I’m reachable here and through the mechanics of the petition itself.

ruth

The Olive Press has an interesting article re the behaviour of banks in Andalucia.  I've not been posting long enough to allow the thread but the article is headed 'Were banks linked to planning scandal?'

Take a look.

If you haven't signed the petition to the Governor of the Bank of Spain yet and it's appropriate for you to do so (you have a guarantee which the bank will not honour) then please do.  And publicise the petition as widely as you can.  I think the scandal is probably a national one and goes far beyond the borders of Andalucia.

Many thanks to those of you that have signed already.

Ruth

This is great but unfortunately it doesn't cover the situation where an illegal Bank Guarantee was written into the contract i.e. where the insurance company was apparently not recognised in Spain. It would be interesting to know just many purchasers were fooled into thinking they had a valid BG through this route.

Good luck with all your endeavours.

Ads, I'm so sorry.  The petition doesn't cover this.  Words fail me.

And the dishonesty and the conniving and the scams keep pouring out.  Unbelievable!!

Ruth

Deleted

Here is the link Ruth wanted to post:

More happy weekend reading!

http://www.theolivepress.es/2008/11/27/were-banks-linked-to-planning-scandal/

To remind:

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/spanishbankguarantees.html

If the petition is appropriate for you (you have a bank guarantee and it hasn't been honoured) and you haven't yet signed , please do. Keep the signatures coming...

Many thanks to those of you that have.

Ruth

Hi Ruth

What development do you have a problem with the Bank Guarantee .

Regards

Just Dan

Another link to read

http://www.marbella-lawyers.com/articles/showArticle/spanish-bank-guarantees

Hi Ruth

Are you one of the 5 thats on Santa Maria Green Hills as there seem a great deal of posters from this one development on this petition when the problem is throughout Spain.

Is anyone looking to use this petition in any appeal in the courts. ( if anyone does in my opinion they will loose thats for sure)In particular on the Costa del Sol.

Seems that the excellent intent to get only those with valid Bank Guarantees are being diluted by the poor souls that were promised one and not received it.

Perhaps another Petition for them would be helpful as they shouldnt be forgotton as these are being taken for a ride even more than the rest of us.

Also when posting if people could post their experiences it would have treble the effect

That excellent posting by Marbella Lawyers makes it all sound SOOoooo easy when we all know thats way off the mark

Any Help . Please dont hesitate to ask

Just Dan

Dan, if you look at the petition you will see that a very small percentage are from GH. Peinsa people are signing  too +many others. Don't get hung up on GH.  The comments on the petition make interesting reading. It is also encouraging to Ruth (and others)  to see so many signatures in a relatively short  time frame.

Seems that the excellent intent to get only those with valid Bank Guarantees are being diluted by the poor souls that were promised one and not received it.

"One size cannot fit all."

Forgive me but wasnt the whole petition for those with Bank Guarantees and how a legally binding agreement between and individual and a Countries banking system is abused .

Would hate to think that this excellent direct approach does not carry maximum punch, this is not a one fits all situation and Ruth has posted her wish on her Petition that we do keep focussed. Yep have read the postings and they are getting diluted with many not wanting to be identified or willing to share their case.

Also would;be a shame;should (and I am not saying they are)anyone be using the petition for self motivated reasons. SANTA MARIA;GREEN;HILLS seemed to have started the postings so I was inclined to ask.

As we all know there is not much chance of the banks paying out on this development as its one of the better ones and;most are far worse.Having said that then great for all concerned however this one is well accounted; for with buyers ready to pounce ( probably the Bank employees)

Still this is going off track& and surely the Petition is down to a simple answer. Are Bank Guarantees in Spain;legal or not  YES or NO; I hope that Ruth agrees as thats what we are all;supporting.

The simple fact is that Spain will ignore everyone until other Euro Countries start to realise that the situation regarding these legal contracts which we have a problem with may very well be theirs in the future when Spain has to be bailed out. THATS WHY THEY ARE;SAYING THEY;ARE NOT;RECEIVING ANY;COMPLAINTS and typical of how some lie to suit themselves

Yep they really think that this will sort itself out and its still TOMORROW TOMORROW and what we want is action today.

Please everyone get behind the Petition and it will be ineresting to where it leads us

Great to see E.O.S backing this
 

Just Dan

He who rides with the hare and the hounds

DAN..."Running with the hare & hunting with the hounds!   

I understand the argument that one size cannot fit all but wouldn't there be strength in numbers if all cases of Bank Guarantee illegality (split into their respective types of abuse) were to be covered by a petition such as this? That way surely the petition would identify the true picture and better reflect the large number of purchasers caught up in Bank Guarantee abuse to warrant a combined effort and therefore a very strong case for justice.

Ads, I can see the point you are making, BUT... Ruth has set up the petition in light of her own experience of the injustice of the Spanish judicial system of having a BG, a just reason to exercise the BG and it not being honoured by the bank, which I have to say is disgraceful. She wrote the preface on what knowledge she has of people who have BGs. There is nothing to stop people adding their names to the petition who have not got BGs but find themselves in similar predicaments re illegal properties, no LFOs etc. There is a section where one can write comments about their personal circumstances. It will all add weight to rapidly growing petition.

Thanks Tish but Ruth said that the petition doesn't cover the circumstance where an invalid BG has been provided (i.e. where the insurance company providing the BG was not recognised in Spain) so your advice goes against her interpretation. Who is right here?

There's no point others adding to the list unless the wide spectrum of Bank Guarantee abuse is properly identified and addressed by the powers that be. For real action to prevail it shouldn't just be a small contingent of those affected by illegal practices connected with Bank Guarantees who's circumstances are to be reviewed here, it should be looked upon as a whole.

From my own personal perspective I would wish that this petition carry  the weight of opinion connected with all aspects of BG abuse. I so admire Ruth for following this through but please can we have some combined agreement here on the true purpose and intent of this petition, which I had genuinely hoped was established to stamp out abuse within the BG system..... Perhaps I was mistaken?

ADS

Of course you are correct but firstly Ruth question must be answered

Are Bank Guarantees in Spain;legal or not  YES or NO.    "If its no then little point of having one if its useless anyway" so why waste the time trying to get one.

SPAIN and its European partners must be made to answer if this legally binding contract is worth the paper its written on if Spain can ever start repairing the damage

Just Dan

Running with the hares and huntings with the doggies and he who bats on both sides

It's not as simple as that Just Dan as I'm referring to those who have been denied the right to a vaild BG (and all the ensuing rights that  should have followed on from this) from the outset according to their contract, and not for those who might require one in the future.

No, I'm still hoping that the whole aspect of BG abuse should be recognised within this petition.

Thanks Tish but Ruth said that the petition doesn't cover the circumstance where an invalid BG has been provided (i.e. where the insurance company providing the BG was not recognised in Spain) so your advice goes against her interpretation. Who is right here?

Ads,

Ruth is correct in as much as I now understand that your situatiopn is a "legal" problem. ( I'm sorry but I cannot remember where you bought . Did you have a "BG" issued by a Swiss insurance company?)

I spoke to Ruth this morning and she  briefly explained your situation to me as best she could. I don't want to complicate things so I am leaving it to Ruth to convey her thoughts on the matter. She is hoping to add something in her letter to the person she is sending the petition to, covering circumstances such as yours.

Dan,

Bank Guarantees are  legal and are a requirement  when buying off-plan. ( You should know that by now!)They are recognised in Spain, but are abused by the banks and seemingly ,the Judges. The fact that many do not have them is down to corrupt lawyers working with corrupt developers.

Tish

You posted

"Bank Guarantees are  legal and are a requirement  when buying off-plan. ( You should know that by now!)They are recognised in Spain, but are abused by the banks and seemingly ,the Judges. The fact that many do not have them is down to corrupt lawyers working with corrupt developer"

They are indeed required by law.

I thought the intention of the petition was the sole intention to bring about the legality and enforcement of this guarantee denied for the very reasons you have posted
 

At the moment they are worthless bits of paper with no meaning and little point in having one in many parts of Spain

Hear what youre saying adds and understand fully however a worthless bit of paper is just that

Just Dan

It's better to have a BG than not have one. It is a legal document. Without one, you are up the creak without a paddle. The point of Ruths petition is to bring the attenton to the fact that the banks are not honouring them.

Tish

To  Ruth,me and thousands of others at the moment its worthless bit of paper. (Not helping us much is it ?)

WE want that bit of paper to be worth what the law says its worth and well you know thats not the case.

I dont agree that all of those without one are up the creek without a paddle as well you know that there are those on the forums that have won without one. 

We totally support several and one in particular in his fight for justice and now you say he well screwed without much of a hope as they dont have guarantees .

I refer you to Ruths Petition and what her intentions are with regards to a simple question  YES or NO .As you say they are legal then lets start seeing the decisions and Banks paying out on them. ( YOUR WORDS The point of Ruths petition is to bring the attenton to the fact that the banks are not honouring them.)

Wht cant you just support this one issue as it was you that kindly posted it on the forums and now start going around  the roundabouts

Once and if we get courts to start ruling in favour of those with legal Bank Guarantees and Banks then paying out on them at least it may be the start of something.to work from.

Please everyone support the question in the Petition.

Just Dan

He who rides with doggies and hunts with the hares

I will attempt to recap the petition to the Governor of the Bank of Spain as questions have been asked about it by posters to this and other forums. 

The petition to the Governor of the Bank of Spain will be sent to him for one specific reason. He is the man who has some power within his domain to exercise authority over the banks of Spain. You can read on the Bank of Spain’s website that, under the Banking Discipline Law, he can apply pressure where he sees fit and in some cases he can impose sanctions. Examples are quoted.

My own complaint is that I was given a legitimate guarantee from a High Street Bank which this same bank will not now honour. The courts, through three hearings and a review, whilst at first supporting me have reversed the initial decision and found for the bank. My complaint then to the Governor of the BoS is about the misuse of the courts by the banks in order to hold on to deposits.

My guarantee was a straightforward clear document of insurance – there is nothing in it to quibble about. It says all the right things in all the right places. I should have been able to claim against the bank without a problem. I need not have gone to court; I need not have had to wait three and a half years; I could have used the money to buy a legal property somewhere else thus enabling Spain’s property market to continue to prosper.

The Governor of the BoS is not responsible for people not receiving bank guarantees. The fault there lies with the developer and/or your lawyer. I also think the agents can hold their hands up here, too. When selling properties they could advise clients to make sure that all the legalities are in place. They are the ones with the knowledge of the area and the property climate and could have been underlining the ‘Buyer Beware’ caution. Some did; some didn’t.

If people without guarantees want to make a complaint then they should write to the President of the CGPJ (Consejo General del Poder Judicial - The General Council of the Judiciary) or, if they wish, draw up a separate petition to go to him. Personally, I would do both.

Suzanne’s petition which she is taking to No 10 – Spanish Property Scandal Petition – covers all points and everyone with any kind of problem can sign up to that. She has done such a stalwart job and well deserves a sympathetic hearing from Gordon Brown followed by swift action from him for all of us. If our Government can bail out savers in English banks that go under then surely they should consider bailing out the hundreds of us who are losing big money in Spain through no fault of our own. But that’s my opinion.

Yes, there is strength in numbers but that was never an aim of this petition. It was designed to focus on one particular aspect of the problems surrounding BGs – one which could be addressed by the Governor of the BoS, so he says. I, together with all the signatories, are literally calling his bluff!

Once you have read the petition itself, and you feel that it applies to your case, and that you can support it by making your position very clear in the comments box, then please sign.

I intend these to be my last words on the subject matter of the petition and I do sincerely hope that the above answers some of your concerns.

Thank you for taking time to read this.
roots

Dan, I cannot understand your rambling post! I do support Ruth and everyone fighting the injustice in Spain.

Who has won their deposit monies back without having a BG?  Name names please.

I think people without BG's will have a  more difficult time unless they have an excellent lawyer that can prove negligence. ( A legal situation and entirely different from cases where people have legitimate claims using their BG.))

Ads asked if they could sign the petiton even though they have no BG. I thought they could, but  that was incorrect as Ruth  informed me that  the petition  really only covered people with problems( with off-plan )who had a BG.

Tish

Perhaps if you had read and understood what the petition was all about you may then have understood the ramblings.

I am as clear on this as Ruth where I think  the E.O.S team considered as a real nail on the head direct question directed at one person.

No ifs or buts should I have one or not.

Just a group of people that have a LEGAL  DOCUMENT in hand  and demand justice from the law of the land exactly as they have stated.must happen.

We all know that developers /solicitors have broken the law by not issuing bank guarantees but as bad as this is its a different issue and needs a diiferent approach

Your up the creek without a paddle seems to now be put in some sort of perspective and also you now understand that its a different  legal issue as to those with a legal legitimate claim using their B.G

Who has won without a B.G ?  How the hell I am supposed to know as I am having enough trouble finding ones that have been paid with one including myself.

You posted the petition and I would have thought you had the understanding of whats its about before hand and if you check its loosing its venom .by wishy washy comments often with no details and many that are way off track as you were regarding its intent.

SUPPORT THE PETITION AS PER RUTHS EXCELLENT STATEMENTS.  END OF

 Just Dan

Just another of your usual attacks on me Dan . I'm not responding to your stupid statements. You seem to have an opinion on everything. 

I posted about the Petition at Ruth's request as she was new to the forum and unsure of her way around...not that it is any of your business. Butt out!  Your posts are incoherent as many people on the EOS forum have remarked upon. I think you are  perhaps, trying to hijack Ruth's petition. Pathetic.

If you've got any questions, ask Ruth. 

Oh !by the way. What is this in plain English? Please explain.

I am as clear on this as Ruth where I think  the E.O.S team considered as a real nail on the head direct question directed at one person.

Tish

I have asked Ruth ,have offered my full support .You seem to understand my postings as your replying to them.

Some have sent me P/Ms as the Petition is loosing its way both here and the other Forum as R---- has just attempted to get back on track,(They seem to not have the same problems understanding me as the others you mention however I am sorry if like you they cant understand my resolve on issues that really matter)

Please do not go on the personal attack route as there is nothing in my postingsnonly point to facts on this very important issue and I am having non of that

YES ,You are right that I do have opinions on everything and I happen to think that this Petition is an execellent idea.

Why on earth would I consider Hi-Jacking  this Petition as this is one of the real questions that need to be put to the test in the interest of almost everyone with pending court cases including me.

Great you helped Ruth out with posting the petition and we all thank you for this .Can we now concentrate on getting maximum out of it and not side line with any tit tat postings.

 Telling me to butt out is a complete waste of time and energy better suited working together to give a united support..

Hopefully both forums are now back on track so lets try to make the maximum impact.

Regards

Just Dan

END OF TISH.  Lets move on.