How are the days you spend travelling to and from Spain calcuated towards the 182 day rule

 As I understand it, you are allowed to spend 182 days in Spain before becoming residents.  However, how are the travelling days counted towards this total, for instance is our day of travel to Spain and our day of travel from Spain counted.  Or do you count just the actual nights you are in Spain? 

Thanks.

Jude

I really can't see anyone having a problem with a couple of days either way. More important would be where you actually call / treat as home.

If of course you are not 'legal' and paying tax anywhere, then of course, you could become of interest to the authorities.

 Hi Johnzx

Thanks for this.  Was just wondering.

HMRC have just published their long awaited statutory residence test this month

www.hmrc.gov.uk/international/rdr3.pdf

All the answers here

 Hi Team GB

Thanks for the link - will have a read through it.

"As I understand it, you are allowed to spend 182 days in Spain before becoming residents.  However, how are the travelling days counted towards this total, for instance is our day of travel to Spain and our day of travel from Spain counted.  Or do you count just the actual nights you are in Spain? "

You become 'fiscally resident' after 183 days. You arerequired to sign on the EU foreign residents list after 90 days.

They don't have to.,You do. It would be up to you to prove that you were where you said you were & for what time period & not up tothem to prove that you weren't.

Gus.     They don't have to.,  You do.

Not convinced that is so.  In years gone by, when I have been at presentations,  people have raised that point with the 'lawyer' giving the presentation and they have always said the authorities must prove it. 

However, that said, it is a relatively simple matter to prove where a person has spent time, we all leave trails :  credit cards, mobile phones, utility usage, neighbours who are always will to confirm with the authorities when you were there.,  the airline passenger lists which are sent ahead of your arrival. CCTV etc.

Shakespeare: 

For Spanish tax residency purposes,  it's the total number of days (183) in a year.  (although other rules can over ride that, so it could be less)

For registering on the EU Citizens Register it's  being in Spain 3 months PERMANENTLY, so a couple of weeks away means you start counting again (but 183 rule still applies anyway).

PS     I just read this:-  

The governments of France, Germany, Italy and Spain together with the UK and US have developed a “Model Intergovernmental Agreement to Improve Tax Compliance and Implement FATCA”. If you think that sounds like double Dutch it simply means that these countries have established a framework for reporting by financial institutions account information to their respective tax authorities. In other words if you are resident in any of these countries you need to be aware that the authorities are co operating and exchanging information in their continued attack on tax evasion.

I am an EU citizen,documented non-resident of Spain(ie pay all taxes due etc) and while I lay no claim to being the sharpest tool in the tool-box and do not possess the wealth of experience of long-term residents I have found it necessary to acquaint myself with the rules of the game for non-residents and may be able to assist OP in some respects

1.First ,the basics-the three categories of individuals liable for taxation in Spain are set out below,quoted directly from English section of Agencia Tributaria.It cannot be over-emphasised that  that tha provisions relate to being resident for tax purpose only and may not be relevant to any other residency process or issue

"An individual is resident in Spanish  terrority where any one of the following circumstances apply

1.They have stayed longer than 183  days in Spanish territory over the calendar year.In order to determine the permanence in Spanish territory,occasional absences are included,except if the tax-payer accredits their  residency in another country .In the case of countries or territories labelled as tax havens,the Tax Administration can demand proof of stay in that tax haven over a period of 183 days within the calendar year

2.They situate the main base or centre of their activities or economic activities directly in Spain

3.They have dependent not legally separated spouse and/orunder age children who are usually resident in Spain.This latter situation accepts evidence to the contrary

Otherwise ,where none of the previous situatins applies ,an individual is considered as non-resident in Spain"

(The second sentence in par 1 appears to provide for a situation where an established resident tax-payer drops below 183 days in a particular year-his tax-resident status is not automatically nullified)

2.The  conventional wisdom is that your location at midnight on a particular day determines your lcation  on that dayas defined for tax purpose.This is supported on page29 of HMRC document

"You are considered to have spent a day in the UK if you are here at the end of the day(midnight)¨"

( then makes certain qualifications particular to British circumstances)

My interpretation of Spanish provision is that it means exactly what it says-you become resident for tax-purposes immediately after midnight chimes on 183rd day,having now entered upon your 184th day

3.Spain operates a system of Advance Passenger Information for air passengers to Spain(for details enter term on Ryanair.com and "Search)from UK /Ireland to Spain whereby passport detailsetc are made available to Spanish authorities.Accordingly Spanish authorites have a system available to  them with records of air travel of any individual in whom they are interested

For individuals who wish to avoid becoming tax-resident in Spain the rules are clear-avoid falling into any of three categories listed above-for most people this means ensuring that they do not spend longer than 183  days in total in Spain in a  calendar yesr

 Dear Nostradomus

Many thanks for this information.  It would seem clear then that both outgoing and returning days are counted towards the 182 (3) rule.  

Jude

Jude, as I said, "  I really can't see anyone having a problem with a couple of days either way. More important would be where you actually call / treat as home.

If of course you are not 'legal' and paying tax anywhere, then of course, you could become of interest to the authorities"

The info provided, whilst interesting,  is largely academic.  From my experience of 25 years living in Spain, being legally registered for the last 18 years,  Spain is unlikely to be as pedantic as the UK on days spent, if it is a day here or there.

" 3.Spain operates a system of Advance Passenger Information for air passengers to Spain(for details enter term on Ryanair.com and "Search)from UK /Ireland to Spain whereby passport detailsetc are made available to Spanish authorities.Accordingly Spanish authorites have a system available to  them with records of air travel of any individual in whom they are interested "

But no idea whatsever when you come & go by road.lol

But no idea whatsever when you come & go by road.

As I said previously, "it is a relatively simple matter to prove where a person has spent time, we all leave trails :  credit cards, mobile phones, utility usage, neighbours who are always will to confirm with the authorities when you were there., .......................................    . CCTV etc.

This is even easier if you come by road, with a car one  leaves an even better trail,   credit cards for petrol, green card insurance extension,  breakdown cover, and of course CCTV cameras on major roads and Autovias. !
 

Oh, yes... I can see them blowing the absolutely massive resources involved in something like that to monitor the daily habits of a typical ex-pat..... who might just owe a pittance in tax.... or probably owes absolutely nothing, One way to plunge the entire country into even more debt. Just an idea... but might be better off investigating Amazon.es's and Apple.es's tax arrangements? You know... billions of euros traded through 'offices' in Ireland to companies that are tax resident absolutely nowhere?

Hey 66,  You missed my post :-  

The info provided, whilst interesting,  is largely academic.  From my experience of 25 years living in Spain, being legally registered for the last 18 years,  Spain is unlikely to be as pedantic as the UK on days spent, if it is a day here or there.

I am with you as you see, but some people seem to think THE AUTHORITIES (are stupid) AND CANNOT FOLLOW THEIR ACTIONS IF THEY WANT TO.

I was just pointing out a few of the ways 'big brother' can check where we are and what we are doing.

This message was last edited by johnzx on 23/05/2013.

 Hi johnzx

I agree and am aware that one's whereabouts are easily tracked and am sure that the Spanish authorities are 'less relaxed' than previously with regard to such matters.

I assume that the financial state of the country is pushing for government to be more vigilant.

Jude

I normally post only once on a particular thread,leaving readers to attach whatever weight they wish to my particular contribution,but matters have arisen in this thread which to my mind require further comment

I find it truly extraordinary that a former police officer can describe the current,written law of the land as"largely academic".I really must remember this defence   if I am ever questioned by the Spanish police-"I am well  aware of the law you are going on about,officer,but I regard it as largely academic,so please go away and stop bothering me".The advice that individuals should not be unduly concerned if they exceed the 183 days "if it is a day here or or there" is interesting.I have noted before on internet fora that individuals are prepared to advise others to break the law;if this advice proves to be unsound will the person offering the advice volunteer to pay the relevant fine or serve the relevant term of imprisonment?  I think not. It is stated that "Spain is unlikely to be as pedantic as the UK in this context."I am sure that tax officials in most jurisdictions have a degree of discretion and that if a tax official becomes aware that an individual has exceeded the 183 days he may exercise discretion in certain circumstances.However if a tax official is assigned the task of investigating a paritcular individual and accepts full responsibility for the outcome to his superiors I would be very surprised if any tolerance was shown-bureaucrats are not noted for putting their necks on the line.I would add that if a tax official   states that he would be prepared  to exercise tolerance as described,ask for that in writing and watch him scurry to the door.The reality of course is that Spain is an immensely diverse nation,with possibly differing approaches in different areas but for myself I will adhere strictly to the 183 day rule(others may do as they choose),with all dur respect to the source ot the advice in this particular case

 Hi Nostradamus

Thanks for this.  I am of the same opinion and would rather ere on the side of caution.  I am still slightly confused as to whether it is 182 or 183 days - but I am going to plan for no more than 182.

Thank you for the advice.

Jude

Nostra

Just in case you don´t understand it, that means I was íllegally´here for 7 years before I registered.