Cameron promises in/out referendum on EU

Does that mean that I will have to go back to Scotland to claim my Scottish nationality, so that I can continue to be a citizen of the EU when I return to Spain?

 Two points brought up, the freezing of pensions and cessation of healthcare.

However, Britain has bilateral agreements with many non-EU regarding the pensions.  Apart from those countries in the EEA, you will also get increases in the state pension in most commonwealth countries plus Former Yugoslavia, Korea, Japan, Phillipines, USA, Turkey and many others (a simple look on the web will list them) so why would it automatically stop if we pulled out of the EU? Talking to a gentelman who has lived and travelled here for many years, they used to get a healthcare card issued which gave them treatment in France and Spain at no cost.  The country of origin was then sent the bill.  And this was before UK joined the EEC (yes, he is quite elderly).

Now, the Spanish get pension rises and healthcare in UK.  Why would Spain want to stop that?

As asked previously, anyone know what would happen to things like this without an automatic knee jerk reaction that it would no longer continue?  

 Geewiss

Switzerland and Norway have to follow the same rules and have the same level of compliance if they want to trade with the EU. Without having a say!

And let's face it. Camerons speech was not aimed at Europe but at Ukip and their sympathizers. What is the substance? IF I am reelected. IF our (unclear) demands can not be renegotiated, then I promise (maybe) an in or out referendum in 5 years time. All a bit vage, isn't it. But are people talking about a triple dip recession?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/jan/25/britain-triple-dip-recession-manufacturing

Plus I think that a lot of people would hesitate to vote out even if they may be so inclined now. It is a far reaching decision to make and people may very well shy away from ticking the out box. I guess what I am trying to say is don't hold your breath quite yet.

Regarding ,,we joined a common market'', true. But ,,Treaty of Rome''

The Treaty establishing the EEC affirmed in its preamble that signatory States were  "determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe". In this way, the member States specifically affirmed the political objective of a progressive political integration. 

And thenTo sum up, a process was put in motion in which progressive economic integration was paving the way to the long term objective, the political union. 

As asked previously, anyone know what would happen to things like this without an automatic knee jerk reaction that it would no longer continue?  

Baobal

No idea and I suspect that there is no answer to it at the moment. I guess everything would be subject to renegotiation. EVERYTHING. If people are fed up with EU bureaucracy now then just wait until the untangeling begins. Well, more jobs for the boys, heh.

The EEC was nothing whatsoever to do with ‘free trade Common Market. It was simply  a Trojan  Horse to get  the UK  into the EU by stealth.

In January 1973, Heath said: “There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified”.

The fact is the whole issue is and always has been a total shambles and GREAT Britain needs to secure its position before it’s too late. The public were lied to by Heath and have been misled ever since.

Woodbug

 The immigration into the UK from just about everywhere was an EU ploy to dilute the voting base which coincidently helped Blair as well.

harddunby

I reduced the size a bit, hope you don't mind. I don't think it dilutes the message.

I was just wondering who of the immigrants had the vote and for what elections?

Generations who have since 1973 been brought up on pro EU propaganda from the UK Government just don’t see what the fuss is about. 

I take it you are talking about the generations that have been exposed to decades of EU sceptic ( some may very well call it phobic) barrages from  certain politicians and media?

There are too many companies real and imaginary that have done very well out of the EU,

That was one of the points, was it not? And if a company is doing well then... yes employment, tax and so on.

I guess you did not mean it that way though.

then factor in it is the resting place for the likes of Blair,Mandelson,Kinnock and Ashdown, you begin to realise what the man in the street with one vote is up against. 

One man, one vote. Make it count in an informed way.

 Woodbug

Small print, eh?

Hi there

Have to agree with Woodbug completely, he must be reading my mind !

The British people were never given a vote on membership of the EU and it is long overdue.    Ask the man in the street what has he benefitted from the EU and he will say "nothing".   Ask him what he has had taken away from him and he can give you a list :

Laws

Working Time Directive

Stupid Health & Safety Rules

Loss of Rights

Loss of Jobs

Infrastructure bent to breaking point

Lack of control of Immigration

NHS hospitals closing and lack of resources due to numbers accessing it (International World Service instead of a National Health Service)

Wages driven down through mass immigration

Companies who have been sold off with government approval to the EU

Utility companies that have been sold off to the EU selling back their products at 4 or 5 times the price of before EU membership.

There is a recession yes, but I have to ask myself, how bad would things be if we were not accommodating 7 million extra people on this tiny island with wage levels dropping with resultant taxes dropping into the coffers.

Cameron will not give us a vote, this is a ploy to keep him in office and if he is re-elected (which I very much doubt) then he will do what Ireland did, offer a vote and if it is NO, go back and ask for another answer until the answer is YES.

The EU benefits businesses, governments, policitians and that is all.    It benefits few others.   Yes some jobs would go if we pulled out of the EU but we would be able to trade without restrictions to the rest of the world (after all I have read that we only trade 40% with the EU), so the gap could be quickly made up elsewhere (the world is becoming a much smaller place).    We sell a large part of our luxury cars for a start to India and China.   Some people say the work would go to cheaper economies but look at China and India, their workers standards of living are rising fast.   They are becoming big consumers and soon will be earning more than the UK workers (after all that wouldn't take much with wages dropping like a stone!).

I will vote UKIP, even though they have no chance of getting in, I will not vote for the other 3 (who are all in it together - to coin a phrase), out to look after themselves with their business interests in the EU (Heseltine I have read owns hundreds of acres of farmland in the EU from which he received millions in profits each year, obviously he wants to stay in!), so do most of the others who look forward to their next gravy train.

Speaking as an individual of 62 yrs of age and having lived with the Common Market which we voted for and which suddenly morphed into the EU without our agreement, I can only see far more negatives than positives of staying in and so do most of my friends and relatives.   If this is mirrored nationwide I think it will be a landslide for "OUT" 

Jwhite

Laws    

What particular law do you not agree with? Let me know and I have a look and see if I understand where your grievance comes from.           

Working Time Directive

And that is bad because?

Stupid Health & Safety Rules

And that is bad because? ( Let's leave the stupid out for a moment)

Loss of Rights

What rights have you lost? Let me know and.....

Loss of Jobs

How about jobs gained?

Infrastructure bent to breaking point

I don't think that's an EU issue.

Lack of control of Immigration

Well, Blair choose not to restrict the movement of immigrant workers from newly joined States whereas Germany and others did. He could have done so and later on wished he had.Not an EU issue.

But as I said earlier, it's the classic strategy. Problems in the country. It's the Eu fault. 

Cameron hasn't done this with "British interests" in mind ..... he's done it hoping to win the next election. And if he wins, why should he stick to his word and have a referendum ? He's not stuck to his word on so many other things, including "We won't reform the NHS" before embarking upon the most drastic changes in 60 years ! He is just a PR man, ....... a good one, but he cannot be trusted on anything.

 What's going to happen about the british citizens who have lived in another EU country for more than 15 years and have lost their right to vote in the UK, are they going to be given a vote in this referendum?

Robert

Do you live in the UK ?

 No. I am German and live in Ireland. 

The fact is that the EU does not work – end of!

If it did, we wouldn’t be in the position we are in at the moment. The EU is on financial cliff edge still, the cost of the EU is horrendous and of no benefit to anyone except the legion of overpaid MEP’s, advisors and administrators who would no doubt be unemployable elsewhere.

I can only speak for my own industry and I can evidence many cases where the EU rules and regulations would be regarded as a joke if the swingeing penalties for non-compliance were not so serious. I can also demonstrate several instances where EU inspired law is ignored by some EU members or even interpreted to suit themselves to the detriment of the UK who have always believed in a fair play and decency - unlike others. I have raised several issues with Dr. Vince Cable MP concerning the inequality in Europe, all of which were back-heeled to minions or quasi-euro committees – none of which were satisfactorily addressed. The only result we had was from the British embassy in Paris who took up a cudgel on our behalf, so it does make one wonder if the UK government just doesn’t want to rock the EU boat.

As some of the forum members have said, if anyone can point out ANY benefits to us sceptics then maybe we could be convinced, but in the absence of their being any benefits indicated, coupled with the abject mess the EU is in, why would anyone want to continue as a member?

Woodbug

 Woodbug

I have posted some of what I think to be benefits at the beginning of my series of posts. I am sure there are more as indeed are less desirable aspects. As I have stated before the EU is not perfect. 

Woodbug

Agree with you entirely !    I have seen none of the benefits of being in the EU, but many of its disadvantages both in work and out and cannot see any tangible benefits no matter how hard I try    Perhaps others who live elsewhere in the EU who benefit by not adhering to the rules or as you say bend them to suit their own purpose get far more out but considering we are one of the largest net contributors, the disadvantages from where I am sitting far outweigh any advantages.    I dare say there is some truth in the fact that our governments are always namby pamby in always sticking to the rules "Play the game" and all that, something which the other EU countries have no difficulty in ignoring.     Probably why our reputation abroad is one which summons up words like "Dustbin of the World", "The British Stand for Anything" or "The British are Soft", and expressions of that sort which seem common on many forums when discussing what is happening in the UK.     They are right, so it will be good that if we finally get a chance to vote for what we want, it may show for once that the British do have a backbone after all and will get a chance to stand up and vote for what they want, although as I say I think Cameron will renage on the deal when the time comes.

Michael Heaney on his CV says the following which I think speaks volumes!!! I

" I have been successful in playing the subsidy junkie game - applying for government grants, working with government paid consultants and documenting sufficient progress on projects to qualify for hand out funding. "

As for the article by Michael Heaney that Cove Robert posted I cannot see anything in it that encourages me to believe in the EU, the following statements actually have the opposite effect,

The EU audit office would be more than happy to sign off the budget - but they are not in control of it - the majority is out of their hands- administered by the national governments who fail to provide sufficient or accurate detail to the EU to allow it to be certain that it has not been misspent by the member states.  I have already commented on this.


Due to the various and varied spending schemes, and many different levels of management (Community, national, regional etc) the management and control systems spread throughout the Union are fragmented and complex. This makes it difficult to impose common standards and coordinate them effectively increasing the risk of error and hampering the achievement of an adequate and consistent level of internal control over the budget as a whole."   This  speaks for itself.

The Court says it can only give positive assurance on some spending, not on the whole budget, as it has found errors in some of the payments under scrutiny. Exactly.

So at least the EU budget- about 1.25% of member countries GNP is being properly monitored and they will not sign off as it all being correctly spent - until every last euro is properly accounted for.  That is my point!

Rather than being a sign of inept bureaucrats and massive corruption - it demonstrates their rigour and their determination to stamp out fraud or misappropriation of funds. So that a good thing then and something to celebrate, rather than to use to castigate or slur the EU.  I think this is a case of putting a positive spin on something that is really bad, it’s something the national governments and EU are particulary good at. I call it dishonest.

Its good to base ones opinions on the facts. Ha ha ha ha ha.......yeah right!

Michael Heaney
Benchwhistler Associates Ltd
Planned People Maintenance - Enhancing the Performance of your most important asset
www.benchwhistler.com
Know Better

My opinion of the EU is that it is an expensive, corrupt, unaccountable and practically unmanageable organization. It is run largely by unelected beaurocrats and a gravy train for many ( in fact the Kinnocks created a dynasty there). I have no confidence or trust in it’s integrity and totally oppose a ‘federal’ Europe. I can’t see anything wrong in a free market as we originally joined but it has now gone too far and they obviously want it to go further. The UK should be able to decide how it wants to run itself and it’s laws without interference from a bunch of unelected (probably unemployable outside of the EU) beaurocrats and technocrats (whatever they are).

 JWhite

Fair enough. Any response to 

Laws    

What particular law do you not agree with? Let me know and I have a look and see if I understand where your grievance comes from.           

Working Time Directive

And that is bad because?

Stupid Health & Safety Rules

And that is bad because? ( Let's leave the stupid out for a moment)

Loss of Rights

What rights have you lost? Let me know and.....

Loss of Jobs

How about jobs gained?

Infrastructure bent to breaking point

I don't think that's an EU issue.

Lack of control of Immigration

Well, Blair choose not to restrict the movement of immigrant workers from newly joined States whereas Germany and others did. He could have done so and later on wished he had.Not an EU issue.

Forgive me but there seem to be issues involved that are a bit beyond the EU. Pity.

Hi JW

Your post is 100% correct and just about sums up the disrespectful contempt that many EU member countries have for the UK. A Maltese bank manager told me that Great Britain was always known as  ‘Great Britain the welfare state’ but it is now known as ‘Britain the farewell state’!

We, as a business are absolutely sick to death of the reams of puerile and pointless legislation that pours out of Europe – mainly as a result of overpaid, power-crazed megalomaniacs, all of whom are employed in  make-work departments who have nothing better to do.

Cove Robert appears to support the EU at any cost, so Sir, please continue to do so, but first look at the mess of your adopted country – in any event, as you are non-British and as you live in Ireland then UK issues won’t affect you so you can continue to support this corrupt, useless and in my view, immoral organization.

I don’t wish to appear obnoxious or rude to anyone on a public forum and if my posts appear to be rather direct and do offend anyone – I sincerely apologise.

Woodbug