24 Sep 2009 12:29 AM:

Gathering up all the papers and required documentation we already had compiled, I thought a proper consultation with the nearest Spanish consulate (in Chicago) would be helpful and appropriate.  After talking with the consulate staff I learned that:

(1) Unless my partner and I can come up with US $100,000 to deposit in Spanish bank account in addition to the private insurance fees and deposits required to the Spanish Social Security system -- which we can't ... we simply don't have funds such as those at our disposal -- he cannot request a "Self-Employment Visa" to enter Spain.  He may, however, be able to be included on my "Retirement Visa" request--if we get married and he is listed (with documentation and appropriate apostilles) as my spouse.  That means we would need to get married.

(2) Unlike Spain and all other countries, where marriage codes and licenses are national policy, the USA does not allow same-sex marriage ... except in four or five of its states.  The consulate officials wondered whether the Spanish authorities would accept an apostilled marriage license from a given state -- any state! -- instead of the country ... especially since we would have to travel quite a few miles to the nearest U.S. state granting same-sex marriage and marriage licenses.  Further, the official stated, the Spaniards might question why we got married in one state (Iowa) when we live in another (Wisconsin).  These questions would raise some of the proverbial eyebrows on the part of the immigration agents and that could lead to more problems down the road for us.

(3) Apart from some relatively simple though tedious documents to obtain (police records of good conduct for both of us, medical certificates of good health, etc.), two major and essential proofs would be required: health insurance and ample retirement funds.

--Health Insurance: Upon examining my comprehensive health insurance policy issued by a major provider (Blue Cross/Blue Shield) with ample covers the consulate staff stated they don't believe such insurance would be acceptable because it essentially covers protections while in America and only "emergency" medical coverage when traveling on holiday ... NOT when residing continuously abroad.  Health insurance coverage for me through an acceptable EU insurer would cost 3.359.52 euros a year, while coverage for my partner would cost another 2.976.44 euros each year.  Moreover, since it can take up eight months (or longer) for Americans to apply for residency visas and learn whether they have been granted, we would have to purchase these policies in advance of ever using them so we could document the policies along with all of the other required paperwork for residency visas.

--Retirement: Under a Spanish residency visa, IF the officials allowed my significant other to be considered my legal spouse, I would have to demonstrate that I would be receiving monthly minimum pension (private or public) payments of approx 1.350 euros to cover the two of us. At 60 years, I technically don't qualify to receive a pension for another two years--until age 62.  However, I brought documentation to show the consulate that we had more than enough in savings to cover this requirement for several years.  In fact, as soon as we returned from Spain, not only did we place our residence for sale with an estate agent ... but I sold my new car.  Indeed, the funds I received for selling my 2008 Mercedes-Benz and buying an old clunker would more than have covered the required monthly income for even more than two years; and my pension payments would actually begin in 18 months.  This isn't acceptable to the Spanish ... who insist on following rules "al pie de la letra."  Savings don't count toward the funds being considered for a pension.  Only pension funds do.

--A further complication is that if my partner enters Spain under my retirement visa, he cannot -- ever! -- follow his dream of beginning a weekly "Supper Club" catering business.  According to the Spanish, if he enters under a retirement visa, he cannot -- once there in Spain -- seek to change it to a self-employment visa.  Nor can he begin his business while in Spain under a retirement visa.  This would be cause for immediate deportation and even possible prison time.

(4) Moreover, we cannot enter Spain under our three-month tourist visas and leave for a day to another EU country (Gibraltar, UK, France, etc.).  We would have to travel to a non-EU country before re-entering Spain.  Doing this once might be ok.  But doing it several times to maintain our residency would could intense suspicion and investigation in these days of terrorism and international conflicts.  Further, should we attempt to circumvent any of the Spanish (or EU) residency requirements or falsify documents or try to compromise their requirements, we could -- and probably would -- be denied entrance to any and all EU countries ... even under a three-month tourist passport.

What this all means is that Americans are welcome to seek NIEs from the Spanish and purchase "vacation bolts" in Spain, but NOT full-time residences.  We can come and visit for three months at one time and then, again, for three months later in the same year.  But we cannot stay for more than three months or even leave after 90 days and return.  Evidently, EU nations have developed these stringent immigration policies because of world conditions and because the USA has similar restrictions and requirements on EU nationals seeking to retire or reside in the USA.

The people at the Spanish consulate said that, obviously, an estate agent in Spain wouldn't be aware of all these complex rules and regulations ... but they did believe that a Spanish attorney should have some idea, at least, about how complicated immigration to Spain can be for non-EU residents and counseled us to investigate further before entering into any contracts or legal agreements.

Be that as it may, we find ourselves with few options and limited allowances.  We have forfeited the 5,000 euros deposited with the sellers of the home we had hoped to reside in full-time and informed our estate agent that, under the circumstances, we won't be selling our small "vacation bolt."  For now, we will visit for holidays of up to 90 days at a time and invest some funds in dressing up our lower level which comprises a kitchen, salon and eating area.

How frustrating and absurd this all seems--especially in today's economic environment.  Here we were planning to retire and reside in Spain, spending money on a property and furnishing it.  We would be eating out, shopping, and contributing to Spain's economy ... but not now, at least, as we seemingly are being denied the opportunity.

Thread: "Tarjeta de Residencia" Question for Maria de Castro

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20 Sep 2009 3:18 PM:

Andy,

Thanks for all that you've shared--the professional as well as the personal.

In addition to the sheer complexity of all the bureaucratic boondoogles and red tape, we find ourselves in a juggling act in terms of time: IF -- and WHEN -- we do sell our home here in the USA, despite the dreadful market conditions, then what?  Originally we had planned to auction (professionally) most of our furniture and furnishings, shipping the rest to Spain.  But that was when we were under the impression that gaining residency in Spain wasn't quite so complex and time-consuming.  So now, if we should sell our house within the first six months, say, of it being on the market (which is when most new "listings" do sell), then what?  It appears we won't have enough time to work through all the emigration requirements.  Do we go ahead with the sale, thankful that a buyer wants to purchase our residence in this dismal market ... sell at a discount nearly 350m2 of property (leaving us next to nothing) ... and spend the money to both put the remainder in storage while paying nearly 700 euros per month to rent a small apartment here while waiting and hoping for an affirmative response to our application for Spanish residency?  Obviously, that's a rhetorical question that neither you nor we can answer at this point.

Instead, we will take things one day at a time--collecting all the required paperwork so that we are ready as quickly as possible to submit our residency request.  We will be traveling 3 1/2 hours within the next two weeks to our neighboring state of Iowa, where we will be legally married and can obtain our license both translated into Spanish and including all the required apostilles.

Following your advice, we sought out qualified (and good) immigration attorneys in the two largest cities in our area: Chicago and Milwaukee.  Alas, all the lawyers here specialize in immigration (incoming) not emigration (outgoing) and have not been able to help us.  So, at this point, we're not even certain about the clause in Schengen Visa Application that "... all documents (except for the visa application) must be translated into Spanish."  Does that mean that all 48 pages of our health insurance policy ... as well as the US government's Social Security calculations and two private pensions (for me) -- not to mention the certificates of good conduct from the police department and good health from our doctor -- have to be translated verbatim, word for word, from English to Spanish?  Good grief: that could take forever and cost a veritable fortune!!!!!  Especially considering that it will have to be done for both of us.

Even proof of our own housing (in Spain) isn't a simple matter in terms of the residency visa application since the authorities are requesting the ORIGINAL copy (which is in Spain and hasn't been released yet ... nor for several more months to us) by the authorities.  We do, however, have a complete and notarized statement of our purchase transaction from the notario, showing that we own our property "free and clear," without any mortgage or encumbrances.

Similarly, I wonder whether the NIE which we each were required to obtain prior to purchasing the property is worth anything or comes into play when applying for residency?  It isn't mentioned anywhere in the required documentation.

As I said, we will take things one day at a time, always remembering the Spanish mantra: "Que sera, sera."  If it's meant to be, it will; if not, fortunately for us, we do have other options here in the USA.  Needless to say, however, we will be quite disappointed.

With your consent, we will continue to keep you posted on our struggles, victories and setbacks ... such as they are.

We really appreciate all the time and thought you have put into your postings to us and thank you, humbly and profusely, from the bottom of our hearts.

--Bruce

Thread: "Tarjeta de Residencia" Question for Maria de Castro

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19 Sep 2009 6:42 PM:

Thanks yet again, Andy.  You obviously are well versed in these matters.  Are you an attorney ... or have you learned these lessons the hard way?

My partner (yes, a he) and I have official recognition from the state where we reside as legally registered "domestic partners."  Beyond that, however, we are planning to travel soon to one of four states (Iowa) here in the USA that grants same-sex marriage.  We will marry and get our legal wedding certificate which will be apposilated (sp?) before being included with my application for a retirement visa.  In the USA, marriage is considered a state -- not a federal/national -- government matter, so our marriage will be recognized in other states here, as well as in many other countries.

The question, of course, comes down to how the Spanish officials reviewing and determining our retirement visa request will respond.  Therein is the proverbial $64,000 question!

At this point, we have signed a contract to purchase a home in Olvera and provided a deposit of 5.000 euros.  Within four months, we are required to make another deposit payment of 2.000 euros.  The contract then gives us until 16 September 2010 to complete the purchase or forfeit our deposit.  Even now, however, given these challenging circumstances, we may very well lose our existing deposit ... as well as the friendship and affection of the lovely Brits from whom we are hoping to purchase their house, along with the estate agents and attorneys involved.

Following your earlier message, we did our best to contact all parties concerned with complete information about the challenges facing us, so that they can understand that the obstacles and roadblocks are those raised by Spain (and the EU) and not us.

Perhaps our estate agent and attorney should have been aware of the special considerations and requirements we would be facing as Americans seeking residency visas in Spain ... and advised us as such?

You have been a wealth of information and I certainly thank you profusely for all the information, knowledge, wisdom and advice you have shared.

My very best wishes,

--Bruce

Thread: "Tarjeta de Residencia" Question for Maria de Castro

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19 Sep 2009 3:17 PM:

 Andy:

OMG!!!!!!!!  I had no idea how difficult matters could be ... and here we are in the process of selling a small "vacation bolt" we bought in Olvera for 49,000 euros while intending to purchase another property in Olvera for 137,000 euros as our full-time residence.  Now, you really have me worried--especially since we already have invested US $10,000 as a deposit on this property.  We probably should begin seeking our residency visas immediately at the closest Spanish consulate to us (Chicago) in the USA.

Thanks for sharing such sound and practice knowledge.

Best wishes,

Bruce

Thread: "Tarjeta de Residencia" Question for Maria de Castro

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18 Sep 2009 8:18 PM:

WOW!  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm ... that puts an entirely new and different spin on the matter.  Thanks so much, Andy, for the sage information!

 

--Bruce

Thread: "Tarjeta de Residencia" Question for Maria de Castro

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