19 Oct 2008 8:03 AM:

The fact that my site has been running for 8 years is proof enough that it is genuine.  It has lasted longer than many others that have come and gone.  All someone has to do is to type into a whois search engine and they will get proof.

Almost every property owner requests that payment for their holiday home rental is paid in two parts. An initial deposit to secure the booking followed by payment in full 4 weeks prior to departure.  What security can you offer the guest that has just paid you a couple of thousand euros that your property actually does exist?

The website that Markfish uses takes ALL of the money up front and retains it until the holiday has started. Where is the guarantee that the property does exist?  If this company is the same one that I know of. They paid out to the fraudster AFTER being warned of him and still advertised the property for several months afterwards.

You say you would not pay all the money upfront without some form of security; what security would you expect and what do you provide to your guests? 

There are ways around everything when it comes to fraud, anyone thinking otherwise is naive.  But providing some sort of proof of ownership must surely be something.  Particularly when the website is established and respected by its advertisers. 

What you and Markfish have been indicating is that you do not trust me or my website.  Granted this may not be what you are intending.  But the terminology about spoof websites fraudulent use of bills etc does indicate this.  If someone is dubious about a site, check the testimonials and then contact the owners that are advertising.  Would you both feel the same if you were dealing with one of the larger companies that have tens of thousands of properties on their books and just a four or five hundred?

I have still yet to see anyone come up with a better solution to help prevent fraud.  As you know so much about fraud through your previous work you must appreciate that when someone tries to do something about it they need support or constructive suggestions.  Not negativity.

OK, bills and escrituras can be 'doctored' but so can driving licenses, passports and everything else.  Even a solicitors letter can be made up.

When someone opens up a bank account they have to produce utility bills and another form of ID. Same if you need to open an on line account with a currency exchange company.  So how does anyone know that these people are not fraudsters?  What is the difference between this and what I request? 

As I was involved with the tracking down of this fraudster I know that he opened a bank account in th UK with fraudulent bills. So banks cannot tell a wrong one from a genuine one. 

I think everyone gets bank phishing emails but how many have you had that are for other types of web sites? Personally I have only had one or two and they were for Google Accounts. 

If blanking out NIE and account numbers does not work, why not?  The result is the same as when you register your address on a website.

There has to be some element of trust given and accepted.  Trust between the website owner and the property owner, and turst between the proeprty owner and their potentail guests.  Without that trust there would be no business for anyone. Indeed it is how I run my website.  By trusting owners to pay for their advert AFTER it has gone live. I have only been let down maybe half a dozen times in 8 years.


Thread: Fraudulent 'Owners'

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18 Oct 2008 9:54 PM:

I fully appreciate what you are saying but the details on a utility bill are no different to those that you supply to a website when you register with them. They all ask for an address and phone number and email address.  Any account numbers can and perhaps should be blacked out.  You say a website can be copied which also implies that one of the larger sites can be too.  So what is preventing a potentrail fraudster from copying a site and setting up a registration system that stores your address and your card details and using them for identity fraud.  There is absolutly no difference in that and asking for a utility bill.

I am not saying that people are not legitimate only that it is my view that because of this fraud which will at some stage hit the newspapers.  It is vital that the rental industry, that means both owners and website owners get together to prevent fraud. 

I have just had another new property added to the site this evening and the owner is more than happy to provide me a utility bill with his account details blacked out. He said that he appreciated what I was saying about preventing fraud and thought it a positive step.

The escritura shows nothing more than the fact that you own the property. If your NIE number is on it that can be removed.  Why is it that you do not appear to want to help prevent fraud? I cannot understand it.  If the press do get hold of this story imagine how many people may reconsider booking their own holiday apartment or villa.   It is feasible that it could have a massive impact on the rental market.  People will be looking for reassurance from websites that the advertisers are genuine. 

All I am trying to do is to find a solution to what is and could be a major problem for the industry.  Or is it a case of that some owners are not too concerned if the odd guest gets taken for a few thousand euros.  

Personally, I would sooner have owners that I know are advertsing their own property and have proved it to me than owners that are not worried about potential fraud against guests. 

I say again, put yourself in the position of those guests. How would you feel if you used a web site that had someone advertising a property that did not exist and you lost 6000euros having booked a 6 week honeymoon.

Thread: Fraudulent 'Owners'

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18 Oct 2008 11:42 AM:

You are right this debate can keep on going.  But I do feel I need to clarify a couple of your lasts points.

"After you have gone through all of this trouble, what says the house/ apartment/ villa isn't to be repossessed in the next month? The bills are up to date and that there is electricity/ gas for the clients when they arrive? Isn't that as bad as having no property to go to? 

This is a pointless statement because no matter what efforts one could provide to reassure a guest; if your scenario were to cone true nothing could be done. It is a case of one of those things and I am sure an amicable arrangement would be mad e between the owner and the guest.

My site charges £95 a year so does not qualify for the Credit Card protection.
Many villas are in rural locations as indeed where I live. No landlines are available so phone numbers cannot be used as tool.

I am more than happy to listen to constructive methods / criticism provided they are just that. But not to being accused of doing things to my own benefit.  When all I am doing is to try and protect the rental industry in a way that is acceptable to most.  Ask the guests that lost nearly 15,000euros between them how they feel.  They have all told me the would never use a site that did not indicate that some kind of check had been carried out that the property did exist.

To access the land registry database costs money and owners have enough to pay out for without having to pay an additional fee for this to done on their behalf. Reasonable idea though for those that may prefer that as an option to providing excritura details.

Thread: Fraudulent 'Owners'

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18 Oct 2008 10:57 AM:

Since I introduced the scheme on the 1st October I have added 8 new properties to the site and all have happily provided me with information to show their property existed. 

If the site you use that takes money on behalf of the owners and then sends it on is the one I think it is. It is a free site but they take a commission, they are the ones that did not want to know about the guests losing their money.  They forwarded the funds on to the fraudster even after the guest had reported to them that the villa did not exist.

I have already stated that I protect the owners AND the guests as much as I can.  So I am confused as to your comments:

 "Why should you protect the renters more than the owners? Surely it is the owners that will be paying the advertising charge?"

Without renters there would be no business for owners.  Which is why it is crucial to try and ensure that all properties do exist.

Many renters do not want to use credit cards. Lots of owners do not like using Paypal or Worldpay.  So an all encompassing solution is required.  I would be interested if anyone can come up with a better solution.

You are also the only one out of those whom have replied in this thread that has this problem over sending the excritura or utility bill.  You have not replied to my comment concerning the difference between sending those documents and supplying your personal details to a website that you have never met the owners of.

Thread: Fraudulent 'Owners'

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18 Oct 2008 9:54 AM:

Sorry, I have to disagree with you.  It is not protecting me from fraudulent advertisers it is protecting the potential guests.  I do not lose any money from it.  I know for a fact that one of the other sites did nothing about it at all.  They did not show any care towards the guests that were affected by the fraud and washed their hands of the situation.

I repeat, when you register with a site and pay for the advert using a credit card those details your address is stored in the database of the website owner.  Which is more information than on the front of your escritura or nota simple or utility bill.  So I cannot for the life of me see what you are concerned about. Any account numbers or NIE numbers can be blacked out.  If a website owner was there to commit fraud it would be very easy to do so using the address and personal details that you provided at the time of registration.  It is also possible for them to attain copies of your credit card number if the site was set up that way.

You come across as thinking that I am doing all of this to protect myself and the website.  I have nothing to protect, except the interests of the owners and the guests.  And of course the industry as a whole.  You appear to have the attitude that 'this guy is too good to be true'. In that I am actively trying to help people and NOT make any money out of it. 

Because I am not as big as the 4 major rental portlas means that I can provide a more personalised service to both owners and guests.  Which is greatly appreciated by them. Just read some of the testimonials on the site, all of which contain the ref number for the owner. 

I have not seen any suggestion from you that would be acceptible by owners that would help prevent any fraud.  Unless of course it does not bother you.

The idea of the escritura / utility bill is the only one that will not cost owners money.

Thread: Fraudulent 'Owners'

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