SPANISH POLICE BRUTALITY

For weeks Western media headlined Ukrainian police violence directed against pro-EU protestors in Kiev. I wonder if the Western media and politicians who used it to bash the Ukrainian government will be coming to Spain to urge protestors to overthrow the Rajoy government?

http://rt.com/news/spanish-police-beat-women-708/

Having watched this video, I'm not so sure how much 'brutality' is going on here. The women decided to pick a fight with the police and were subsequently put under control. Heavy handed? Maybe, but how exactly do you get control of protesters acting in this manner without getting hurt yourself? After all, they were'nt exactly going about their protest peacefully. I have seen videos of the Spanish police being quite brutal in other protests but I'm not sure this is quite as bad. Besides, what makes people think they can abuse and start a fight against a police officer? Do they have a right to do that? If someone behaved like that with me, I'd feel justified giving them a good hiding.

One thing I don't like is that many police officers go into battle against protesters without wearing their I.D. therefore can't be identified when they do decide to beat someone up for the hell of it.

By coincidence I wrote a letter to an English language newspaper this week, which they might print.   I believe kit is relevant to this thread.-

The letter- 

I have become aware that non Spaniards, and in particular British citizens, do not understand there is big difference between how one needs to reacts to the police in Spain compared with the UK.  Not understanding this often leads to problems and even people being forcefully arrested. 

In the UK one cannot be prosecuted for being rude to, or insulting, a police officer and it would be unusual for a person, say pushing a police officer whilst arguing or being arrested by him/her, to be charged with an additional offence. In Spain it is a criminal offence to be rude to a police officer, to not comply with his/her instructions, and any action which is seen as resisting arrest, is a serious matter.

Remember,  the law is Spain is different from UK and the police do not wear kid gloves, and are not subservient to the public.  In dealings with the police be respectful and follow their instructions.  Doing otherwise could see you in court charged with an offence.

A case of the Spanish have got it right and the soft UK get it wrong again.

Why should anyone have the right or even consider being rude or insulting to a police officer.

Legislation going through the Spanish parliament is expected to be enacted. From the reports I read anyone insulting a police officer can be fined up to €30,000. Any demonstrator protesting at or near a government building wherever in Spain can be fined up to €600,000.

This in the European Union financially managed by the IMF, ECB and EU. The latter: Twenty-seven unelected commissioners (commissars) make the European Union’s important decisions. Jose Manuel Barroso is the unelected President of the European Commission.

He says that ‘nation states are dangerous if they are excessively democratic.’ The president of the European Council is unelected Herman van Rompuy. Everyone in Brussels and Strasburg knows that if the European Union (EU) applied to join itself it would be turned down flat because of it being undemocratic.

If that is fine by you then so be it but I reject it. I doubt very much I am alone in that rejection. The question you ask, Tadd. Why would anyone even consider being rude to a police officer? Let me take a guess. A demonstrator who, whilst making their peaceful protest is assaulted verbally or physically by a police officer.  It might be a London new vendor for instance making his way home who is assaulted by a riot cop. Yes, there is the remote possibility that they might protest in a language not best suited to your drawing room where you watch and hold court.

Yes, demonstrators do break the law - they are often but not always agent provocateurs. This is not perhaps too well known. A part of riot police policy is to initiate a situation so they can deal with it on their terms, not those of the demonstrators. Can you tell who is who?

“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” - Edmund Burke.

 It might be a London  (itinerant, casual so called)  news vendor for instance making his way home who is assaulted by a riot cop.

However it would be in Spain, that if a person was insisting on passing through a police line during a riot situation, that when the police told them to desist they would do just that.  If they did not then they would legally probably get a lot more than being pushed. If they were overweight, and suffering the effects of  alcohol abuse, which had resulted in a poor heart condition, and they died, I suspect in Spain that would be an end to it.

more than being pushed. If they were overweight, and suffering the effects of  alcohol abuse, which had resulted in a poor heart condition, and they died, 

Missed the bit about this chap being wacked with a baton on the back of his legs first, then pushed to the ground which caused his death moments later, and the copper had a past record of being a bit to aggressive as and when he felt like it, which was also one of the reasons he got the sack.

On 1 April, the police were dealing with six protests in the area: a security operation at ExCeL London, a Stop the War march, a Free Tibet protest outside the Chinese Embassy, a People & Planet protest, a Climate Camp protest, and a protest outside the Bank of England. Protesters ranged from peaceful environmentalists to violent anarchists, according to the police, who said that between 4,000 and 5,000 protesters were at the Climate Camp, and the same number at the Bank of England. Over 5,500 Metropolitan police officers were deployed on 1 April, and 2,800 on 2 April, at an estimated cost of £7.2 million ($11.3 million). Officers worked 14-hour shifts on average; according to a police focus group, they ended their shifts at midnight, were required to sleep on the floor of police stations, were not given a chance to eat, and had to be back on duty at 7 am. This was seen as having contributed to the difficulties they faced.^[19]

The Bank of England protesters were held in place from 12.30 pm until 7.00 pm using a series of cordons, .......................................    At 7 pm, police began to disperse the protesters around the bank, and senior officers made a decision that "reasonable force" could be used. Between 7:10 and 7:40 pm, the crowd surged toward the police, missiles were thrown, and police responded by using their shields to push the crowd back. Scuffles broke out and arrests were made. This was the situation Tomlinson wandered into as he tried to make his way home.^[21]

In a similar situation in Spain, and probably in most of the world, people who put themselves in 'riot situations' and then refuse to follow police instructions, would also have found themselves the victims of the their own actions.

Merry Christmas Baz.

If a police offer abuses you physically or verbally then you can take action against them but responding in a similar manner makes you just as bad as them.   If a police officer gives you an instruction then you should listen and obey but if you do disagree protest in a non violent , non abusive manner

Nothing gives any individual the right to abuse verbally or physically any other human being. Some may say reacting to abuse with abuse could be self defence but others would say walk away or be arrested peacfully - prevention is always better than a cure.

So because the cops had to sleep on the floor, miss dinner, work long hours, thats justification for what happened then, rather a very poor answer for the amount of violence against a person who walked into the situation and with his hands in his pockets so he wasn't exactly a "Stick your fists up copper" type of protester.

This chap was never a threat to the cops or anyone else, a fact proved, this cop was unable to handle  riot control emotions,  and had been accused of, and known for violence before, a fact proved.

It's a good job that these type of coppers are not allowed into the forces then because it's nothing to go without sleep, food, and have to sleep in S**T for quite a few days on end and still be expected to keep cool  when being abused by idiots, and not whining about it.

Your answer John was pretty much what was expected from an ex copper in sticking up for them.

Baz,  Your answer John was pretty much what was expected from an ex copper in sticking up for them.

No Baz I was trying to show what actually happened unlike the many people who have only extracted the bits, which supported their prejudice against the police.

E.g. you said :--

Missed the bit about this chap being wacked with a baton on the back of his legs first, then pushed to the ground which caused his death moments later,

But the facts did not show that was anything to do with Tomlinson’s death.  That you selected that displays only your prejudice. 

QUOTE:   Further post-mortems, conducted by three other pathologists on 9 and 22 April, indicated that Tomlinson had died from internal bleeding caused by blunt force trauma to the abdomen, in association with cirrhosis of the liver.

The police officer was acquitted, so the jury (12 average members of the public) did not believe he was responsible for the death.

I repeat, had the same thing happened in Spain, or in almost any other country in the world, nothing would have been heard about it, other than to say he should not have tried to pass though the police line controlling a riotous situation.

So you actually believe....... That if this person hadn't been hit or pushed over he would have died a few moments later anyway,  and in front of the police, the crowd and the cameras..…Priceless.

For what it's worth I happen to believe..Honestly... Our cops are the best you can ever meet anywhere, so I don't have any prejudice against them what so ever.

And this non-prejudice against the cops is from someone..Me..Who has been on the end of a police beating, in a police cell, by two of them. 

Cant wait for you to tell me I must have deserved it.

Tomlinson collapsed as he tried to find his way through police lines in Cornhill, near the Bank of England, during the protests four years ago. He had been an alcoholic for several years and it was initially presumed he had died from natural causes, a conclusion supported by a first postmortem examination, which gave the cause as heart failure.

But six days later the Guardian published video footage shot by an American in London on business which showed a police officer – later identified as Harwood – in riot gear striking Tomlinson on the leg with a baton before shoving him violently to the pavement, minutes before his final collapse.Monday's statement admits that at the time of the attack Tomlinson posed no threat and was obeying police instructions.

Three pathologists involved in two further postmortem examinations said Tomlinson had died from internal bleeding associated with his liver and consistent with being pushed to the ground.

So who's telling porky's now then John?

All professions have skeletons in the cupboard and the police are no exception. If the entrails of all echelons of the police are ever dissected and analysed even ordinary cops would be appalled. Dixon of Dock Green has been dead a long time.

It is said that today’s police are quasi-military. That flatters them but offends armed forces personnel. I know the police and I know servicemen; the latter would never stoop to the strategies used by the police.

The police will club an unarmed protestor to death. This is why they have made it an offence to photograph or video the police at demonstrations. Nothing to hide? Plenty to hide. They are robotic state apparatchiks.

I have temporarily misplaced it but I have a video of Spanish (special riot) police attacking demonstrators. I am a man of the world, I have seen what human beings are capable of but this video gave me nightmares. Recently, Spanish police fired on Spanish miners. They are doing their job as they see it.

Baz, please point me to where it is reported than there is any evidence  (facts) which show that Tomlinson being hit on the legs and pushed, resulted or even contributed to his death.  The pathologists’ reports do not say that.   In fact I have not seen any evidence of how he sustained the injuries ‘caused by blunt force trauma to the abdomen’ which contributed to his death’.  (The liver is situated in the upper abdomen).

Incidentally, I just checked, I was curious to know why the pathologists’ report linked the internal bleeding and cirrhosis. I found this:-  Bruising and bleeding. When the liver slows or stops producing the proteins needed for blood clotting, a person will bruise or bleed easily. 

It would appear that a person with that condition is quite likely to bleed more freely than a healthy person.   Which probably explains why most of us, who have suffered traumatic injuries, are not dead.  I came off my cycle last year at about 40 mph, hit my head on a curbstone, breaking my helmet, suffered sever bruising and a broken rib, but despite no medical treatment, I did not die.  I was 73 but healthy.   

Had I had cirrhosis, I guess I may not have been here now to wish you Baz,   a happy new year.

Mike, although you did not make it clear, I have understood your post related to the Spanish police. (SPANISH POLICE BRUTALITY).  

Incidentally, I believe it has, for many years, been illegal to photograph Spanish police, in certain circumsatnces..  The change in the law, is that they have recently qualified the law and increased the penalty for doing so,

Baz, please point me to where it is reported than there is any evidence  (facts) which show that Tomlinson being hit on the legs and pushed, resulted or even contributed to his death.  

Well, John isn't it enough that 3 pathologists agreed his injuries and death were consistent to being pushed to the ground.

Isn't it enough that the cops admitted guilt and paid out compensation and sacked the copper....Or do the cops do this every time they are 100 per cent innocent.

Of course the chap was a drinker, of course his heart wasn't as good as yours is, of course his liver was on the point of being ruined..but.......Wacked on the legs from behind...…Pushed over from behind with no way of supporting himself because his hands were in his pockets....Even you might have to think "Now did all this shock give the man a heart attack".

All you have done is answered back through the eyes of a copper, I could give you many things about the sneaky crafty ways the cops work when they want to protect themselves..But then you know this.... But these are not relevant to the post in question or you falling of your bike.

Did you ever see the Farmers Protest about the ban on Hunting which took place in London some years ago? Did you see the Farmers on TV who had their heads cracked open? My Uncle a North Devon Farmer was their with many of his Farming friends and watched the police bash anyone close by for no reason at all, they were shocked at what they all witnessed. No one died so the head cracking was all within regulations.

There are always cases that people can use to make excuses for or against in a debate.

However, thankfully most of these cases are a minorty and in general the police across the world do a good job in maintaining law and order and keeping the majority of us safe

Bottom line is anyone who supports, condones, incites or makes excuses for violence is wrong.

Self defence, retaliation or violent reaction would never occur if nobody started violence or abuse in the first place.

The instigator (or the one who cannot protest in a non violent sensible way) is always the root of the problem

I think it was Thomas Edisosn who said violence simply confrims that the human race are still savages

 All you have done is answered back through the eyes of a copper, I could give you many things about the sneaky crafty ways the cops work when they want to protect themselves. But then you know this.... But these are not relevant to the post in question

Baz:-     All you have done is answered back through the eyes of a copper, I could give you many things about the sneaky crafty ways the cops work when they want to protect themselves. But then you know this.... But these are not relevant to the post in question

Maybe I am reading into your comments something which is not there, but it seems to me you are coming very close to suggesting that I am in some way sneaky, crafty, seeking to protect guilty police officers and generally dishonest.  I though am sure the bent coppers I have investigated, arrested and prosecuted would not agree with you.

Not that it is relevant, but I can only remember one case, in 1962,  where I needed to use any force to arrest a person. He was a person I knew quite well and had arrested several times for driving whilst disqualified,  but when I greeted him one night as the pubs turned out he attacked me.  (Three cars stopped and the drivers assisted me to arrest him:  Well it was 1962). The next day at court he apologised and after his case,  we went for a beer.

PS Baz, As I am sure you are aware, bent coppers, like everyone else arrested, are arrested by coppers.