TV problem with community 'rules'. Help?

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12 Apr 2012 14:51 by christinejoyce Star rating. 57 posts Send private message

We have recently bought a ground floor apartment. We have to get permission from the owner above to put a dish on his chimney breast, where his is also placed. We have been informed by the 'Presidente' that the community do not allow a 1 mtre dish. Now here is the problem to get a signal for From the Astra satellite we need to have at least a meter dish at the mOment and a possibly a 1.4 if they change the Asta position, which is on the cards for 2013. We do not wish to use an illegal system such as Superbeam, and the community seems to sanction this as we have been told we cannot have the dish which we need to obtain a legal system. I am also aware of a ruling that a community cannot deny under European Law the right to receive LEGAL satellite television. I am in Formentera del Segura. Anyone out there that can help? Much appreciated!



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12 Apr 2012 16:45 by mobailey Star rating in San Cayetano. 480 posts Send private message

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 Under Spanish law you can put up a dish if you want this is the commutity trying to put its foot down do you have a balcony that you can put it on that will not be seen from the ground if so put it there that is what we have done.



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12 Apr 2012 17:51 by gcarton Star rating. 146 posts Send private message

 Is the dish of your upstairs neighbour pointed at UK Satellite service? If so why not ask to have a multiple LNB installed on the dish at your expense and share the same dish? We provide a feed to our neighbours. COst of part is around 60 Euros for a quad LNB.

Guy





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12 Apr 2012 17:52 by growler Star rating in Birmingham & Benejúz.... 151 posts Send private message

Mobailey said - "Under Spanish law you can put up a dish if you want"

Isn't that a bit vague Mo?  There must be limits surely? I have no idea what the poss dish size variations are but presumably if say a 4m diameter motorized version existed, one might expect it to look a bit OTT in some environments!!!

Seriously though, if you're saying a law exists stating you are entitled to mount a dish (even if there is some criteria as would be reasonable to expect), can you provide a link or anything to it? (reason - our community also suggests you can't put one up).

Thanks in anticipation.. 


 


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12 Apr 2012 18:57 by davmunster Star rating in Carvajal\Belfast. 996 posts Send private message

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The aim should be to agree a solution with the community rather than resorting to law. Our community erected communal dishes on the roof of each block and individual owners then pay for a connection. It took a while but we eventually pursuaded all but one of our neighbours who had put dishes on their terraces to remove them.

If it does come down to law the laws in Spain are often contradictory and experts will often give you conflicting advice.

My experience is that if you erect a dish on your own property (ie on your terrace) the community will find it very difficult in law to make you remove it. However the community owns the external walls of the buildings so can at no cost denouce you at the Town Hall if you erect a dish attached to an external wall without authorisation. The Town Hall will then give you notice and then fine you if you don't remove it.

The right to receive any LEGAL broadcast (in my opinion) does not include output from UK broadcasters who are not licenced to broadcast to Spain regardless of whether it is re broadcast or received directly.

 



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12 Apr 2012 22:07 by satandpcguy Star rating in Gandia, Valencia. 391 posts Send private message

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As mentioned, it depends what "EU Law" you think means you have the right to receive "LEGAL satellite television".

My understanding is that under EU Law (freedon of information i think) it is your right as an EU citizen to have access to news and events in your own language in any EU country. However, it does not define what channels they should be. It could be argued that BBC World News and Sky News could satisfy those rights, and are available on an 60cm dish over most of Europe.

Other EU Law (AVMS / previously TV without Frontiers) has provisions that satellite dish can be blocked from installation, if, for example, the aesthetics of the building are affected. As previously posted, dish sharing is encouraged, especially in communtities.

But then I have also heard stories, that communities / presidents have allowed previously refused dishes to be installed, once the term "eu law" is mentioned in discussions, and presumably just giving in to it rather then wading through the "eu laws".

So the best idea would be "to agree a solution with the community rather than resorting to law."

"and a possibly a 1.4 if they change the Asta position, which is on the cards for 2013"

The satellites are not changing position. The UK TV satellites will always be located at 28.2-28,5 degrees. It would cost too much money to change their positions...thats about 10m dishes in the UK alone to realign! However, 3 new Astra satellites will launch from q4 2012 to q2 2014, replacing the older satellites currently in use. These new satellites have both pan european beams and a UK spot beam. It is expected, note expected, not confirmed, that the UK Spot beam may be harder to receive than the previous UK Spot beam, and your predicted 1.4m dish may not be enough to receive those signals where you are, but know one knows until the first satellite is up and running.  You should still be able to receive those channels that are allocated to the Pan european beams.

The right to receive any LEGAL broadcast (in my opinion) does not include output from UK broadcasters who are not licenced to broadcast to Spain regardless of whether it is re broadcast or received directly.

License to broadcast to Spain and programme broadcast rights are two seperate things. Spanish broadcasters, based in Spain, and using Spanish transmitters need a license to broadcast in Spain. Broadcasters based outside of Spain do not need a license. Hence why you can legally receive 1000s of FTA tv channels from many countries by satelite. However, UK broadcasters do not own the broadcast rights for programming for Spain, and so cannot "market" their channels in Spain, and can, by use of viewing cards issued to UK addresses or "narrow uk spot beams" limit their reception to their intended market.


 


This message was last edited by satandpcguy on 12/04/2012.

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12 Apr 2012 23:03 by davmunster Star rating in Carvajal\Belfast. 996 posts Send private message

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Useful clarification satandpcguy.

Thanks



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14 Apr 2012 08:10 by crisco Star rating. 14 posts Send private message

I live in a Community of 50 apartments. We have 3 large dishes at one end of the building. One points to to Astra and gets signals for Canal plus and some international. That signal is available to all owners as the LNB is set to one polarity.

The second dish is a mult  LNB for the 2 Finnish owners.

 

The third is for Sky and has a Quattro LNB
 
This is special type of LNB intended for use in a shared dish installation to deliver signals to any number of users.

A quattro LNB has a single feedhorn and four outputs, which each supply just one of the signals, low band/horizontal polarization, high band/vertical polarization, low/vertical and high/horizontal, to a multiswitch  which then delivers to each connected sky box.

These come in 8 16 or 32 outputs typically and can support very long cable runs. The multiplex will be near the dish. It is important to use the highest quality LNB, we use Invacom.

THe multiples is about €120 for 16 outputs and the LNB about €80. Also use the highest quality copper satellitte cable. Some Sky boxes are better than others.  I originally had aSony sky box but now use SKY HD with no problems.

This makes for avery tidy installation. It is totally uneeccessary to have indiviual dishes for all apartments. If the existing dish is large enough, you can add a second LNB of the correct type to it using a special mounting.

 


 


This message was last edited by crisco on 14/04/2012.



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14 Apr 2012 08:53 by Zena143 Star rating. 22 posts Send private message

Hi Everyone who has contributed to this thread - I am currently dealing with this exact problem at present and am based in Fuengirola - so when it comes to Town Hall rules - check out yours and do not rely on mine.

Now I have the usual Administrator who when faced with all the below points/laws/regulations - etc., stated "It is all in the interpretation!" So you can see what you will be up against - however I have told him I have provided him with proof of the legality of my having a satelite dish on my property and also on the community property! bearing in mind the usual neighbourly good manners eg not blocking light etc.

First thing in Spain was the Royal Decree-Law 1/1998 of 27th February - regarding Communal Infastructures providing access to Telecommunications services in buildings.   You must read the whole lot and then specifically Section 9 1. 3rd paragraph where you have your legal right to place the satelite dish subject to what is written - and also you must have given your President/Community three months to provide you with a communal satelite dish - once they have not - away you go!

Second thing is the European Directive from Brussels 2 July 2001 IP/01/913 right to use a satellite dish - this was to stop everyone jumping on the foreign bandwagon and charging loads of money for having a dish (town halls, etc)

Third thing you will get thrown at you is the Town Hall regulations - I challenged this and was finally sent a Buletin from them and when I had it translated- yes it did say the town hall did not like aerials and satelite dishes allover the facades of buildings but right at the end of this buletin were the magical words subject to the laws of the country - so you can see they hope to bluff foreignors into not having a dish!

and Finally - you will get thrown at you the rules of the community - again this is not right.  Article 6 of the Horizontal Property Law states that the community rules must be within the limits established by the Law and the Statutes.  See above Royal Decree.

So all of this can be found on the internet in both languages Spanish and English - but never mind all that my Administrator sadly shakes his head and says "no it is all in the interpretation..........."  Spain is wonderful!

Zena 143





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14 Apr 2012 09:14 by televisiontechnology Star rating in Costa Blanca South. 163 posts Send private message

San Fulgencio town hall tried to charge people for planning permission dishes & taxes back in 2008 (they wanted you to submit an architects drawing to install a dish & add other charges) - This was at the time when Telmicro the rebroadcaster was shut down. In summary the town hall figured they coiuld make a fast buck by skimming the expatriates.  This was overtuned as was found to be illegal.

Town halls have a habit of making up their own rules, many of which if reviewed are deemed illegal - though of course most expatriates will not argue - using the above as an example, the town hall is the last place to visit for anything approaching a straighforward or honest answer. Approach a town hall with an open wallet or a the obligatory brown envelope.

 

Link to Eu directive in English

http://televisiontechnology.tech.officelive.com/Documents/IP-01-913_EN.pdf

 

http://televisiontechnology.tech.officelive.com/Documents/IP-01-913_ES.pdf

Spanish

 

There is probably a more up to date version, though we have place this under the nose of the odd president & administrator - seems to have been accepted. 

 

'Administrative obstacles: It is not acceptable to make the installation of a satellite dish subject to systematic prior authorisation or completion of a complex and expensive administrative procedure.'

 

We work on many communities & this type of comment is quite usual. It is a fair point that from a visual aspect a community would not wish to have lots of antennas & dishes everywhere.  However this being the case they should allow a community based solution - you may be able to have a single larger dish for the entire community. This does however require organising a few like minded expatriates and then presenting your case to the administration / president - 'If we can share a dish' then the visual impact on the community would be far less - it also adds value to the community for those with rentals etc & keeps ongoing costs for TV down.  

 

It will depend on the type of property you have & layout of your community - there may be other ways of hiding the dish from sight (from the road / street) additionally you can even find a few neighbours in the same street & run cables through ducts and have a street or bank sharing - costs shared & the more people that want this, the more the president will be put under pressure to allow this.

 

On larger communities you can put in fibre optics (sometimes neccessary due to cable run lengths) this if well thought out can have further benefits for the community, as running multi core fibre cables will also allow other digital services to be added in later - such as high speed internet around the entire site or other shared network services - again a useful long term benefit for the community & in real terms add very little in terms of cost - but you do need the support of the community itself to make viable.

 

The problem is whether the law is on your side or otherwise, if you have a president who thinks they are Franco, getting anything such as this acheived is difficult. 

 

Or you could take the last and not so polite option - put the dish up on your roof  irrespective & when the president complains, present the EU directive (printed off beforehand) they won't sue you as they'll have to pay out of community funds & a total waste of time.  This would put the president right in the firing line for costing everyone money by not being helpful in finding a solution in the first place.

 

 

 

 


This message was last edited by televisiontechnology on 14/04/2012.


This message was last edited by televisiontechnology on 14/04/2012.

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14 Apr 2012 12:57 by satandpcguy Star rating in Gandia, Valencia. 391 posts Send private message

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Interesting to see a similar situation in the UK - just be typing IP/01/913 into Google. According to a lawyer on http://www.justanswer.com/uk-law/3aj4d-falt-owners-request-install-satellite-dish-outside.html his research shows that even by 2012, IP/01/913 was not incorporated into UK law. So it could equally be that it is not even incorporated into Spanish law.

And interesting to see that according to the same lawyer "Provided that the right exists in the lease to refuse permission, you are at liberty to do so." So it could be argued that if the community rules say no to a dish, and you agreed as part of your rent or purchase to abide by those community rules, then you have to abide by it. Although that is only one lawyers interpretaion, on a UK situation, which may well be different in Spain.

The you see a story like http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023359/Having-satellite-dish-human-right-says-European-court.html which changes the perspective again.

IP/01/913 could be one of the many  EU Communications that is for guidance only, leaving it open to all sorts of interpretation.  It could be that is is not and never intended to be an EU Law or Directive. In the same way the often (mis) quoted TV Without Frontier Directive was thought to be law, where is was just for guidance, a "nice to have".

If the OP really want to go down the EU Law route, then proper legal advice would be required about the relevant EU laws, rather than "laymans law" advice on a forum. Or consider an alternative to satellite dish, like a telco that offers UK TV via its phone service (with their limitations - eg depends on ADSL speed you have and possible buffering issues)


This message was last edited by satandpcguy on 14/04/2012.


This message was last edited by satandpcguy on 14/04/2012.

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14 Apr 2012 13:09 by Zena143 Star rating. 22 posts Send private message

Hi

Thank you for playing devil's advocate - I am hoping to get feedback on my research - for or against. 

However, as far as I know, not ever being part of a set of flats in UK - there is no Horizontal Property Law in England - whilst in Spain there is and that specifically states the community cannot set down self rules that are against the laws of Spain and so any community regulation that states you cannot have a satellite dish on your property (or outside your balcony on community property) is against the Royal Decree I have already quoted and therefore cannot be enforced.

As for the Brussels directive, the european courts have a nice little earner with eveyone taking countries to court for not complying with various directives.  Presumably such action would bankrupt the community if they had to go down that route!!!

Zena 143





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14 Apr 2012 13:13 by televisiontechnology Star rating in Costa Blanca South. 163 posts Send private message

The problem is also Jon, that you can take what the average Spanish lawyer says with a pinch of salt.

I have dealt with many lawyers over the years through business & found more than often the information given by many suits them at the time, with the incentive being their own financial gain rather than 100% accurate information. 

Additionally as the Spanish ignore many EU rules & regulations anyway, this would just be another example - whether they should or should not - but at least it is an EU directive and can be presented to president / administrator - as mentioned previously we have used this to do works when there has been an awkward president & it has been accepted - probably due to the fact its an official document and no one can be bothered to check any futher?

Additionally Spanish law is based on Roman law. Ultimately if your lawyer misadvises you (rampant problem in the property sector and many issue caused by lawyers - as well as the banks) - you have no recourse. If you sign something and your lawyer told you to do it, then its your problem. In the UK it is different the lawyer has a debt of responsibility and deliberate misinformation or misguidance can get you barred. In Spain this can and has been done deliberately for financial benefit of the lawyers.

You've been in Spain long enough to know in spite of any rules, laws & regulations many simply do not care one jot and do their own thing. Part of the reason why Spain is in a mess - no accountability & even when you are in the right, justice or an honest answer, can be hard to find

 

 

 

 



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14 Apr 2012 13:20 by satandpcguy Star rating in Gandia, Valencia. 391 posts Send private message

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I am hoping to get feedback on my research - for or against.

Would be interesting if you keep us all update with what you find out



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14 Apr 2012 13:25 by Karensun Star rating in Orihuela Costa. 1744 posts Send private message

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What about the bit in the HPL that says you cannot alter the aesthetic quality of the exterior of the building?

I'm sure that would include sticking dishes on the balcony of apartments, which are after all, eterior even when glassed in............esècially as glassing in is illegal...and yes I know everybody does it but that still doesn't make it legal!...................

Just playing devil's advocate here.................!!  



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14 Apr 2012 13:26 by davmunster Star rating in Carvajal\Belfast. 996 posts Send private message

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As Vice President of our community I have a slightly different perspective on this - I have beeen trying to enforce rules rather than wanting to break them!

My earlier comments on the options open to a Cummunity when someone erects a dish, or anything else, without permission on community property were based on experience. We had our administrator go to Fuengirola Town Hall and "set complaints" against the offenders. They then received notice to remove them within 30 days from the Town Hall. Failure to comply results in a fine and failure to pay the fine results in a bigger fine. Eventually it has the potential to become quite messy. This action does not cost the community anything but neither does the community get the benefit of the fines.

The key to the above is that the dish was on community property. Other dishes on terraces also break our community rules but it would cost the community to go to court and the outcome is uncertain.

We also had the advantage of having an alternative service in place so no one was being deprived of thier right to watch Corrie. Our blocks contain around 20 apartments each. We got a satelite installer who was willing to put 1large dish on each roof and splitters at no cost to the community. They have recovered their costs by charging each neighbour for a connection.



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14 Apr 2012 13:43 by Zena143 Star rating. 22 posts Send private message

Hi Dave

That is very interesting but what if your community's individuals (affected by your Administrator's actions) had denounced both your community and the Town Hall on the grounds that the Town Hall is subject too to the Law of the Land too - what would you have done then ? 

If the affected individuals win, then both you and the Town Hall would be paying court costs, solicitor's costs and damages I would have thought.  I think you got lucky and gently bullied them into submission but if they had bitten back - the community might have suffered financially or do you have something concrete that states Fuengirola Town Hall can over rule the Royal Decree?

As for Karensun - what does aesthetic facade mean ?  I am not damaging the building, I am not changing the colour of the building, I just have a fairly lightly weighing 1.5 satelite dish screwed into my balcony.   No more aesthetically unpleasant than an aerial as far as I am concerned.  I even would be happy to paint it the colour of the building if that is what people want, but I do not see how it can be any more unpleasant than the thousands of mobile masts and boosters we have all over the world.  One further point I would say to all in Fuengirola - when you next go into town or promenade down our lovely 7Km paseo, raise your eyes from the sea and the wonderful restaurants and see how many satelite dishes and aerials and mobile masts you can count just in 100 yards!!!

Regards Zena 143





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14 Apr 2012 13:57 by davmunster Star rating in Carvajal\Belfast. 996 posts Send private message

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Zena

We did get sued once over a different issue. It took a year or so but the neighbour ended up loosing so had to pay our costs as well as her own. She also decided to move because of the bad feeling the action had caused. A pretty high price to pay!

Due to the conflicting nature of the various laws rules and decrees anyone suing their own community would have little chance of success. I am not a lawyer, never mind a Spanish one, but as we acted reasonably, providing an alternative I do not think we "got lucky". Anyone foolish enough to sue their community in these circumstances would risk loosing a lot more than their satelite dish.



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14 Apr 2012 14:04 by Zena143 Star rating. 22 posts Send private message

HI David

You just mentioned 'but as we acted reasonably providing an alternative' -you did not mention providing an alternative in your earlier first thread ? What was your alternative please ?

Zena 143





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14 Apr 2012 14:15 by davmunster Star rating in Carvajal\Belfast. 996 posts Send private message

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copied from below:

We also had the advantage of having an alternative service in place so no one was being deprived of thier right to watch Corrie. Our blocks contain around 20 apartments each. We got a satelite installer who was willing to put 1large dish on each roof and splitters at no cost to the community. They have recovered their costs by charging each neighbour for a connection.



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