Return of deposits from Aifos in 2003

This is a copy of an email I have just sent to European MP Diana Wallace. To the other Aifos victims I would be interested in your comments after you have read the letter below. How can it be right that it looks like we may receive 50% of our deposits back 17 years after Aifos received them?

Mega.

Hi Mega, 

      Speaking as an AIFOS creditor, could you tell me where you have obtained all this information ?

      Has your Lawyer informed you of this or has there been an AIFOS Creditors meeting ?

      Cheers, look forward to your reply

Both, last friday  was the first aifos creditors meeting what you see in my email to mrs wallis was relayed to a friend by his solicitor who was there.My solicitor sent me a load of figures showing how they(aifos) propose to return thier debts over the next 8 years,if they can work thier way out of addminisration.

Regards Mega

Hi Mega,

Thanks for the up-date.

Hopefully my Spanish Lawyer will be forwarding all the info from this Creditors meeting ASAP.

Well at  least something has happened, I thought we were permanently stuck on the "Back Burner".

Cheers

                                                 TO ALL AIFOS CREDITORS.

Could I ask that if anyone attended the Meeting last Friday (20/01) or has been informed by their respective Lawyers, as to the out come of the Creditors Meeting, that they pass on any relevant information.

Thank you.

Hi everyone, I've just had a reply from my Spanish Lawyer after querying the original post with them.  They have loosely confirmed the points in the original post from mega but said that the comments made in the meeting were made 'off record' and are waiting for a letter confirming the points from Aifos before relaying it to the creditors.  If I hear anything more I will share it here.  Seems like yet again we are going to have to wait!

                                                     TO ALL AIFOS CREDITORS

My Spanish Lawyer has just informed me that they attended the Creditors Meeting and as soon as the information is translated to English it will be past on ASAP

Cheers

 Dear All,

we are creditors of Aifos, (Aifos Hippodromo) and we were contacted by an employee of Aifos 3 weeks ago, saying that they are now trying to sell some completed Aifos Properties which are going to be offered with a mortgage, and then get some cash in to complete the unfinished projects such as the Hippodromo. (he estimated this will be completed in 2 or 3 years)

He contacted me, to see if I could sell some of these apartments which have been discounted.

Hopefully there is something happening,  as our deposit has been with Aifos since 2003.

Our Block DERBY in Hippodromo, and the rest of the bloques (less 2 bloques) have been built, and in fact I have entered our apartment 4 years ago, and it was a shell, awaiting completion, and I guess it will not take much to complete.

This is a good forum to keep the information flowing amongst us creditors

Hi Dinohatahet,

Could you please tell us if the AIFOS employee, who contacted you, left  an e-mail address.

In 2004 we purchased on the Hacienda Marina Complex, however our particular block, Las Conchas was never built, and we would be interested in what AIFOS propose for buyers in our position.

Cheers

Hi Dino,

I've sent you a P.M.

Cheers

 I have responded to your PM Belucky358

And Matias speaks perfect English

Dino

Hi Dino,

Sent Mr. Matias Palomo an e-mail and I have just had a reply which reads, " Me acaba de llegar esto "

My basic translation is " I just got this "

What do you make of this, I am hoping it means that he is acknowledging receiving the message and further information will follow ??

Cheers

 Hello Belucky358

I think this is exactly what he means !! 

Let's hope he will deal with the matter soon,

Please keep us informed.

Regards

Dino

Has anyone considered or taken advice about making a claim against the Bank(s) associated with Aifos developments, as an alternative legal option to accepting the offer from Aifos (citing law 57/68)?

Hi Ads,      

Since it is becoming more than likely that we will not see the return of our money from AIFOS, it maybe the only route left to take.

Unfortunately , as with many other people, I do not have a Bank Guarantee, and because my Contract does not give any details of the Bank into which my money was paid, I am at a lose as to which Bank I would make a claim.

My original Spanish Lawyer was obviously employed by AIFOS, as was my English Estate Agents, I suspect, therefore the only care they took of my purchase, was to flees me, of as much money as possible.   I have asked my original Lawyer to inform me of the details of the Bank into which he paid my money, but he does not reply, I have been informed  from various sources that  the only way to obtain this information is to take this Lawyer to court, which is more expense.

I have found out that seven Spanish Banks have been taken over by Bankia, S.A. which could possibly mean more complications if my unknown bank was one of these seven.

However  to look on the bright side my State Pension  goes up by £5.30p a week, in April

Cheers

belucky358

yes, we are in the same situation, though we can track our money to two banks. If any lawyer was confident enough of the law 57/68 to tell us our chance of success was more than 50% or even better would  take our case on as 'no win-no fee', then it would give us confidence that that route was worthwhile. I think the reality is that the whole bloody government and justice system in Spain is so bent that no amount of' 'being in the right' stands for anything, it just makes you a mug for having faith in anyone who holds a position of legal trust.

Hi goodstich,

                        May be you could try maria at costaluzlawyors she seems on the ball,good luck let us know how you get on

Regards Mega

mega

I have spoken to maria about this, but get much the same answer in that there is no certainty that this route will work?. Having said that, I think maria feels that this route is our only chance of getting any money back however small?. I think maria has had success in a two or three cases through this route?, but when you consider have many are in the same boat and the percentage who have had their money returned, despite the fantastic factual petitions raised, the odds look pretty hopeless. I just don't have the money to gamble or feel like waiting years more for a decision that seems to have poor odds at best of a 'real'  win as in return of monies. If I had any trust in the justice system then I would be keener to give it a try, but even the best lawyers know that being in the right in Spain doesn't mean justice like we more often than not take for granted in the UK. The Spanish justice system is very often just one 'wrong' after another sadly, and there's no body of regulation to put a stop to it.

Hi

In some circumstances, where the developer is bankrupt or in administration then probably the only way to stand a chance of recovering your deposit would be to take action according to LEY 57/68 against the developers Bank that accepted your off-plan deposit.  Normally this would also be the bank that was funding the project/developer.

But as Goodstitch correctly points out - no Lawyer can guarantee that this route would be 100% successful.  The fact that this is still a relatively new course of action coupled with the fact that the Spanish legal system is inconsistent to say the least, makes most people nervous of paying out more in legal fees for this purpose.

On a positive note there are now several instances of Provincial Court Judgments (Santander, Cantabria, Burgos, Alicante, Murcia etc.), the Supreme Court of Navarra and various First Instance Courts in which Judges have ruled on the liability of the Banks according to LEY 57/1968.

Also I read on Maria's blog last week that Caja Murcia actually refunded one of her clients on receipt of the Lawsuit - without the matter proceeding to court.  The notable fact in this case was that no Bank Guarantee existed.  However, Caja Murcia, the bank who accepted the off-plan deposit, must have thought that they had little chance of a successful defence to the Lawsuit and therefore decided to pay out.

http://www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/costaluz/6645/legal-tip-693-caja-murcia-settling.aspx

Kind regards

Keith

Much depends now on the Spanish judiciary to demonstrate their commitment to enforce the laws of the land in Spain with regard to the protection of offplan purchasers, as was the sole purpose of Law 57/68.

There appears over the years to have been much turning of blind eyes by all too many within the real estate industry, the banks and legal profession for that matter, or some may say ignorance in this regard. So the educative process is vital to gain any resolution for those who have had their rights denied........

So long as judicial rulings remain inconsistent or unenforced however,  the longer it will take for Spain's real estate industry  to recover, as no-one will be able to say hand on heart that consumer interests are protected in Spain if existing laws are not adhered to. It's up to everyone to keep this issue high on the agenda and to fight for their rights.

As Keith has observed this law 57/68 appears gradually to be gaining recognition in the form of case wins/settlements by those who demonstrate a solid legal case against the Bank (with effective evidence) and are represented by those well practiced in this specialised field. But it appears to be very slow progress to date and great patience is required in the interim (more's the pity!!!).

Let's see what happens in the critical year ahead with ongoing claims against the Banks. But in the meantime it's essential to keep the educative process going, and Keith is doing his bit remarkably well and with great dedication via his postings and petition.

see http://www.eyeonspain.com/forums/posts-long-9347.aspx

Let's see if the Spanish judiciary recognise and respond to everyones' understandable concerns and vulnerabilities in this regard by resolving cases according to the law of the land. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. As Goodstich has understandably pointed out however, the odd case win here or there will not restore confidence. This law has to be enacted CONSISTENTLY.

I hope everyone can remain positive and focused on the legal fight ahead and support Keith with petition evidence. And I for one hope that those of us committed to this legal fight against the Banks will gradually restore some faith for others to follow suit. But I completely appreciate any misgivings as things remain at present. One step at a time however.

Stay strong eveyone and keep your eyes peeled on this ongoing educative process and look out for successful case wins against the Banks, with return of monies I might add, as a case win without enforcement is insufficient!!! (ever the optimist! ).

Agreed 100% Ads - Case wins are only truly successful with the return of monies.

We will remain positive and keep on fighting.

Let us hope 2012 is the year when the tide really begins to turn and more judgements begin to go in favour of the victim rather than in favour of the developers & banks.

Kind regards

Keith

I've just had it confirmed by my lawyer that the Aifos offer of 50% in 8 years time looks like the best we will get if the creditors agree to it?, but because of no law or regulation that says they will pay, it is most probably useless!. 

Once again you have to ask, ''Is the Spanish justice system/government any better to those so clearly cheated through government lack of regulation and implemented law than the known crooks many of us have won long court battles against? ''.

A win in court can so often meen nothing in Spain, no justice, no integrity, no honesty, no truth, just lies and deception from those paid hansomely who have no intention of doing what they clearly know is right. Where left to turn for justice?, the EU don't want to know, the UK government don't want to know. Pressure on Spain just falls on deaf ears because they know they have nobody in a higher position to answer to.

I've been trying to get justice for years and it's 10 years in June since I put a deposit down, to come to this?.  Of coures well done everyone for keeping up the fight, and especially those who have put so much time/energy/money in to it,  but after all the efforts, have we got anyone on our side who will recognise right from wrong and more importantly can force change?.

I really feel that this situation with Aifos is so clearly wrong that without recognition of that from those in a position to take action, then what chance for others cheated on other developments?. 

A justice system that can be relied on in Spain simply does not exist!!.  Until that changes then perhaps many of us have just wasted our time and money???

Hi Goodstich,

May I ask why your law firm is not following the Bank claim route to justice seeing as how you have invested money to date in their defence of your situation? Why should you have to pay more monies up front, when there is a possible alternative route to justice that has not been tried as yet? Why are they not willing to explore with reasoned and educated argument the case for a claim against the Bank? Do they not hold with this legal argument? If not, what exactly are their concerns about this form of defence of your case? Do they not recognise that an existing law is in place that was intended to protect your deposited monies from the outset?

Why for instance when there are existing judicial rulings to date against the Banks are they not willing to put time and effort into a thorough defence of your case? Have they advised you not to follow this alternative route to justice? Have you in fact been led up a blind alley in defence of your case? Why should you pay more monies when this surely was part of your rights from the outset, and as such required detailed and educated examination of realistic routes to justice?

Sorry to ask these questions as they are difficult questions, but necessary nevertheless..........

Hi ads

I have asked them on several occasions, but I always get much the same answer in that though in theory we should have a case, the justice system is such that the odds are not stacked in our favour?.  Unless I've got it wrong, the blame for no BG can also be put at the original lawyers feet (now gone under). and possibly the first Spanish lawyers we were transfered to.  As for paying for litigation, the agreement was that Aifos and OVP would be taken to court for breach of contract which of course happened and we won against them (for what it was worth?). Back then, taking the bank to court wasn't even seen as an option. I think that starting a BG case would mean starting from scratch.  I haven't written off the idea but to be honest I just don't trust the system to do what's right?. I know we should be able to have a strong case, we were never given a BG, of that there is no doubt, and I fully understand that unless cases like this are bought to court more often then the case against the banks is unlikely to gain much momentum.  Can you imagine though ploughing more money in, only to be told after years of more waiting that  the justice system has cheated you again!  I need something solid at least, not just another gamble on justice.

Hi Goodstitch

The developer has obligations under LEY 57/1968.

The developers Bank who accepted the off-plan deposit also has obligation under LEY 57/1968 - especially article 1.2

Your conveyancing Lawyer does not have a direct legal obligation under LEY 57/1968, however you may be able to claim against their legal indemnity insurance for a lack of due diligence and/or professional negligence if it can be proved that they failed to do everything possible to secure the Bank Guarantee - ESPECIALLY IF YOU PAID THE OFF-PLAN DEPOSIT TO YOUR LAWYER AND THEN YOUR LAWYER FORWARDED YOUR FUNDS TO THE DEVELOPERS BANK ACCOUNT WITHOUT SECURING THE BANK GUARANTEE.

But I think taking action against your conveyancing Lawyer would be very risky as I doubt many Lawyers would relish legal action against a fellow Lawyer!

If you can prove that your off-plan deposit was paid to the developers Bank account then by far the best option would be to file a Lawsuit against the Bank according to LEY 57/68 Article 1.2.  Although this course of action is relatively new there are several instances of Provincial Court Judgments (Santander, Cantabria, Burgos, Alicante, Murcia etc), the Supreme Court of Navarra and various First Instance Courts in which Judges have ruled on the liability of the Banks according to LEY 57/1968.

However, as with any court case nobody can give you a guarantee of success.

Starting a claim against the Bank would not necessarily mean starting from stratch.  Much of the evidence must already be contained in your original Lawsuit against the developer.  So it would be a case of revising that Lawsuit, adding some arguments for the liability of the Bank and incorporating examples of LEY 57/68 Case Law.

Kind regards

Keith 

Great advice Keith. Is there no way that your lawyer can minimise the cost of taking this form of action against the Bank, Goodstich?

Law firms should neither be ignorant of their own laws in Spain, nor should they lack the faith to pursue good and sound laws.

Likewise the judiciary have to be consistent in their rulings.

As for the statement relating to lawyers unwillingness to take action against another lawyer in Spain, this implies unethical practice within the legal profession and acts as yet another example of where reform and regulation from the legal professional bodies themselves becomes necessary.

Self regulation, not protectionism to cover bad practice!.

If the Spanish Government seriously wants to improve the country's credibility in terms of their real estate industry, then all of these aspects will have to be brought under control.