El Pinet

My earlier post was not done until just before midnight yesterday and I would like to report exactly how the meeting was conducted.  The hall was attended by approximately 80 people, there seemed to be 4 Dutch/German people, the rest split fairly evenly in my view between English and Spanish, with a main platform at one end of the room where the officials sat.  The admnistrators, 2 ladies and a man sat centre stage and translated the proceedings in spanish, english and german.  The preseident sat at the far end to the left rather than centre stage as one would expect.  The agenda had some items to discuss, of course the only real item of any specific interest to most of us would be setting the levels to pay the budget for the coming year.  The discussions on this topic were contributed by both english and spanish participants.  There were many suggestions as to the way forward but none were accepted by the administrators as a satisfactory solution.  A proposal of a levy of 200 euros was mentioned whether it was a good idea or not, no attempt was given by the administrators to pursue this.  They had a pre-arranged agenda that they were going to push through a vote on their proposal of 100/150 euros was the only one put to the floor.  There was no yes vote.  The only question was "who opposes this motion?"  To my knowledge there were 5 people who raised their hands and their names were taken.  There should have been a second question asking if there were any abstainers followed by those in favour, the administrators are not in the position to state that their motion for this increase was passed, as many people had left the room, so how can they say there was sufficient yes votes amongst those of us that remained. So I would suggest that they do not have a mandate to follow through with this new charge.  Secondly I am very sceptical as to why they had centre stage and not the president as one would expect.  He seemed to be their puppet who had been previously briefed and agreed to their proposal.

I bring to point 2 of the abstainers to this proposal, the man with the white beard and the other large obese man spent most of the meeting outside and in fact missed the call for people who objected, anyone who was there will note that their objection came at the last minute after they had been briefed by other residents.  I point out that one of these peope is now on the committee of M2 and yet he didn't have the decency to sit through these proceedings, not what you would expect from somebody who wants to be a representative of the M2 community.  In fairness to them, there were a large number of people that left the room as 50% of it was in spanish and was quite difficult to understand .  Some of these people came back, some didn't.

I was pleased to read the confirmation from lorkil that the man with the white beard spoke to the president.  This man stood at the rear of the hall.  He walked the full length of the left hand side of the hall and approached the preseident who lent to one side so they could speak.  None of us could hear what they were saying.  This was an open forum, you report in your forum post what was said.  They spoke for quite some time.  Regardless of what you say for a resident to approach the preseident in this way and have a private conversation whilst proceedings are taking place shows total disregard for those of us who were attending.  You state they were discussing proceedural matters, then why not do so from his standing position.

Lorkil is correct, I am sitting in my 3 bedroomed detached house.  To purchase it I employed both solicitors in the UK and Spain to check that everything was legal.  There was a considerable cost in doing this but having made the mistake of purchasing a property at El Pinet I was not going to make the same mistake again.  My advice was that my property at ElPinet cannot be legally lived in, which is why I purchased my second property.  I will not stay there until I am told I can legally do so.  Since its purchase some 4 years ago I have not spent one night in it.  I have not contributed to any of the bills that were presnted at the AGM.  No owners of properties at the site have any legal right to stay in these properties.  This is not my interpretation, this is what the administrator said.  They also said that they were not allowed to pay the electricity and water bills out of the community charge.  The legal opinion that I have is that it is a misappropriation of community funds.  There was much talk of taking non-payers to court in the coming months.  I am assured that the action willl not be successful in the courts, that is not my opinion but the legal opinion that I have for the following reasons:

1.  To inhabit the site is illegal

2.  To charge a community fee for a community that is illegal and does not exist and threaten legal action to those unwilling to participate would not be upheld

3.  The administrators are paying bills with the community funds that they are not entitled to do (they confirmed this themselves at the AGM) and are therefore in breach of their own code of conduct

4  The El Pinet community do not have a contract with Iberdrola.  There fore the committee cannot take legal action against one of its members for an invoice that we have no contractual obligation to pay.

There was a comment from Lorkil in relation to people hiding behind fictious names on this forum post.  It was brought to the attention of the administrators at the AGM that individual(s) at the site had taken actions in disconnecting services to other people's property.  This is not an isolated case and can only be carried out by the person(s) who are the custodian of the  keys to the doors that access these services.  The administrator replied that no-one had the lawful authority to do this but yet it is happening at the El Pinet site, so please don't be surprised at people being afraid to come forward especially those of us that have empty properties, as the vigilantees believe they have the right and power to do as they wish.  As Lorkil at number 76 is now on the committee then it will be easy for him to disclose who this person(s) are.  I look forward to reading the results of your enquiries. 

m2lou, while what you have said is quite a fair summary of the meeting held on the 8-1-2011 i feel that you let yourself down with the language you use.i was one of the people who oposed the charges  i have an apt number 37 i do not live there (i did) i am willing to help the community but i think they are asking too much of people not living there. the large gentleman with the beard in my opinion maybe made a mistake in going to whisper ,but lets be fair it was he who stood up and said he also did not think the charges were fair ,which i applauded then and do now. attacking people verbaly about their appearance or any other thing is counter productive .we will all one day be neighbours and i for one wish too live alongside good neighbours not waring factions.i think an apology is in order and then i think your comment will not detract from your genuine feeling of disagreement with things as they stand at present . lets hope it will not be long before all this is behind us.we can only hope!

Can anyone who was at the meeting please advise if there was any discussion on the list of non-payers. I ask because I was unable to get across from the UK to attend the meeting, but am listed as a non-payer to the value of 600 Euros. I have made all payments up to December 2010, I have e-mailed the administrator twice in the last month to point this out, as well as sedning copies of the entries on my bank account, but I have had no response.

I feel it is each persons right to either pay or not, and no longer wish to argue the virtues of why we should or should not pay, but as a payer, I am now left in a position where I will have to seriously consider becoming a non-payer. I cannot possibly consider continuing to pay a fee which is being incorrectly recorded.

Any updates would be appreciated

In reply to psbhoy, there was a discussion in relation to non-payers.  There does seem to be some discrepancy in how up to date the debtors list was.  The administrator did say that this was causing some delay in taking any action against the non-payers as they are well aware that there may be people on it that may have in fact paid.  The impression that I got was that this was in the process of being rectified.  It may help if you contact them again directly.

Its a terrible position for any resident at El Pinet to find themselves in.  There is no question at all that the homes that they are in are possibly the only place of habitat they have.  Some of us are fortunate enough to have the funds to live elsewhere until this situation concludes.  The only problem we jointly have is paying for the services. Residents living at El Pinet full time are responsible for most of the recurring costs.  To only have to pay 50% more than those of us that choose to comply with spanish regulations is totally unreasonable.  Electricity in Spain is expensive, more so than in the UK.  To only have to pay 150 euros for electricity, water and contribute to the community running costs is totally inadequate.  We will only move forward on this subject when the reality of this sinks in.    

The community fees, when we have a community should be quite low. After all there are not many community assets. There sould be differences as each part is made up in a different way. It will be stated in the master deed. I like many wish I had never heard of the place. Yes, I can sit it out. I wish it was all done with but also I will not be bullied out of my hard earned.

It is not so much the comments I object to, but good manners should go with out saying. Its the way the EP administartors have the run of things. The meeting should have been conducted through the chair. Its our community/residence not Mediterraneo, Iberdrola, San Jose or their administrors and the banks.

It is wrong to put out a name and shame list. When we are neighbours will we weekly stoning?

Firstly, thank you to everyone who has posted information about the AGM yesterday.  Whatever our views, it's really helpful to know what went on, so many thanks.  

What I would really like to know is exactly what is causing the hold up with us getting our habitation certificates and thereby, hopefully, our own meters.   No one seems to be discussing this.   I've heard that there's a dispute between San Jose and Iberdrola regarding the laying of some underground cables, and if that is the case then is this likely to be resolved in the foreseeable future or is this something that could drag on and on?     Do I assume that there were no representatives from San Jose or their Administrators present at the meeting to advise on this and that the situation was not discussed at all?     It all looked so hopeful when the roads were completed earlier last year and it seemed that the end (i.e. Elche Council "adopting" the site and individual meters being installed) was in sight.   Now the situation seems to me worse than it's ever been.  

I've always been in favour of doing all we could to keep El Pinet up and running by paying collectively for the utilities (legal or otherwise)  and have always paid what I've been asked for as a non-resident.   I posted my views on this in early December.   However, if there is a stalemate situation between San Jose and Iberdrola and nothing official is being done to resolve this, then at least we should be made aware of this as it could affect our decisions regarding payment.

My name is Mick . I am the "large man with the beard" and I was elected as a vocales for M2.

During the meeting on the 8th June I left the meeting twice. Once during the reading of the minutes of the last meeting during the spanish language section for a cigarette and once during the discussion of how much we are being asked to pay for the coming year. I asked about 4 or 5 others (residents and non residents) out with me to see if I could get a consensus for a proposal which would be different to the one being proposed by the committee/administrators but could not get an agreement on a proposal.

I had alreqady expressed my opinion to the meeting that there should be a bigger differential between the amounts paid by residents and non residents, a fact know to M2Lou but which he/she chose not to mention. I also said that I and other residents I had spoken to would be prepared to pay more but not if others were still not paying and we were still being cut off.

I spoke to Bo, the president of M13 etc, twice, once to ask him why the proposal for 100 and 150 euros? He explained his reasons and I said that perhaps he should explain them to the meeting and this he did. The second time I spoke to him was to make sure he knew that another vocales had agreed to be elected to the committee.  We were not whispering, which has connotations of intrigue and deceptionand I consider my actions to be a normal part of any meeting, especially one conducted in three languages.

In the interests of openness and sharing of information, I did stay behind to ask the administrators if they could get the minutes out as soon as possible so that people not at the meeting would know what had taken place.

I have posted this to dispel any misinformation and allegations of underhandedness made against me by a previous contributor (you know who you are) just a shame I don't.  

If we assumed that all did pay. We would be talking €30/33000 / month. That is a lot of electricity and water for 30/ 40 families that are apparently permanent. So exactly where would such amounts be going?

CoH........NOW IS IT JUST A DREAM?      So many broken promises.   So many lies.     The builder...trading again, needs to accept their responsibilities.
 

Its this figure I can't get my head around, I wish someone would explain this to me. I watch programmes on the tv and they will say " a community charge of €500". You see the residence with its green area's nicely laid out, the pools up together. We don't have that much to show for.

Elche council are supposed to be in charge of the green area's to the front and I think the lights.

 Firstly, I would like to thank all the people for the information regarding the A.G.M. Secondly, I am very disappointed to find that this website which is a valuable source of information for people like myself (non-resident) being used to insult people.

 Having got that off my chest, there are a few questions I would like to ask; does anyone what is the cost per property to have electricity and water meters installed? With this in mind, would it be possible for owners to pay, over a period of time, in to a seperate fund, the required amount to have their meters installed. Thus eliminating any of this money being used for any other purpose other than the meters with a view to acquiring the Certificate of Habitation.

Finally, I am a non-resident (paid in full) and have only visited El Pinet twice but at this stage would consider stopping the payments as no end to this situation is in sight. I would continue to pay in full or even a little more as I suggested if this would resolve the problem. Once again, I would like to thank all of the people for the genuine information posted on this site and wish all of you a very happy New Year. 

This site is a good talking shop and along with some good people giving information and true opinions. It is unfortunate that there is name calling but that is the way it is. Its out of frustration I guess and the length of time its taking to get things sorted. 

The information on the official El Pinet site is not always up to date, although if you post a form one of the committee they will post a reply at some point.

I am payed up to date, this will not happen in 2011, if things are going to carry on the same way.

Golly here is a link to the official El Pinet site, if you haven't got it.  http://elpinet.yolasite.com/

I remember someone saying water meters were about 30/40. Electricity usage meters which gave a real time usage cost and a running total were £30 in homebase at christmas.

But then, could you trust the 'keyholder'?

This is too simple and does not fund SJ. 

Can someone also tell me if there was only the one meeting.
 

Just trying a post to see if it works.

I have not posted before!!

I attended the AGM on Saturday, and I am amazed that regular posters have made no mention of what, to me, is the most important revelation of the meeting.

This concerns the work required on the main electricity supply cable.  In recent months we have heard that Elche is happy with the work done on the roads, street lighting and sewerage system.  The main outstanding work to be done was the rerouting of the electricity cable underground.  Then habitation certificates could be issued.

When San Jose started the project, a sum of money had to be lodged with Elche.  At the meeting it was disclosed that, although there was distrust between San Jose and Iberdrola, Elche was releasing some of that money so that the engineering work for the cable could be done. Apparantly this work is close to hand and the term 'end of February' was quoted.  Another phrase used was that the problem 'would be solved'.

Also, the site foreman is apparantly being reemployed on site in January.  Work on the site is due to start by the end of the month.

I have no intention of becoming involved in bickering  about money.  I just feel that there is a positive note of optimism and I have great expectations for the next few months - habitation certificates, our own meters and peace of mind.

          I liked this.......the faces of  ............

In reply to some questions

There is the possibility of having electricity meters installed.  It maybe the answer to some of El Pinet's problems.  I was informed of an advert for an electricity meter in a magazine distributed in Spain called Time.  The advert was for an electricity meter fitted at an advrtised cost of 179 euros.  There was a telephone number 671 251 332  ( CHRIS )   Rather than lots of us ringing him up maybe it would be good for an elected member to contact him on all our behalf.  Apparently there are various options: a meter reading display, a coin slot system or a card with credit on it.  Apparently many landlords use them in flats as a way of retrieving electrical expenditure.

I did raise earlier the problem that we may have in relation to insurance.  My understanding is that one of the presidents of the communities works or has a connection with AXA who I was informed some people have insured with.  I am informed that if we are not legally entitled to live in our properties then any insurance claim would be rejected.  It was explained to me that it was the responsibility of the builder to insure the properties until habitation certificated were issued.  I explained that he had gone into administration and I was then informed that it was the duty of the administrators to insure the properties and they should have insurance in place for this purpose.  Again, I think this should be taken up by a committee member who can report back  if these findings are correct.  This information was relayed to me by a senior underwriter at Liberty Seguros.  My only connection with them is they insure my home elsewhere and this discussion came up in relation to a claim.

I also spoke to a friend who has a block of apartments that he rents out and I raised the issue of having a gas boiler and cooker and whether any regulations needed to be adhered too when installed into an apartment complex.  He said it is very similar to back in the UK.  Items such as these need to be installed by a registered installer, who will issue a certificate which he referred as a Bulletin.  As these appliances give off poisonous gases it is important that proper ventilation for the property and for those immediately in the vicinity are not affected by these gases.  This certification should be kept on record by the president of each community which I understand is a requirement.

I noted from reading the forum that there are questions in relation to the habitation certificates and when this may be issued.  I was not the only peson at the AGM but I did take a note when this issue arose and the administrator said "Habitation certificates will only be issued when the complete site is finished".  I am not sure if this fell on deaf ears as this was not what most of us wanted to hear but I am not surprised as this is ingrained in spanish law.  The problem with this is as you all know there is much work to do at the site and then when this is all eventually done there is the issue of residents putting their properties back to how they were when they were originally purchased.  There has been much illegal work carried out by residents and i know for a fact because I have experienced this with my own property a habitation certificate wil not be issued until the property is exactly how it is on the plan.  They will make no exception and take much delight in issuing destruction orders.  Look around at the properties, you don't have to look hard to see how much additional work has been carried out.  Just one of these illegal fixtures will prevent us all from achieving our goals.  For now I do not think we need worry about this as completion by San Jose in my view will be years away.  Sorry to everyone for being so gloomy about this and if you were at the AGM can you please confirm the administrators comments, as just coming from one person should not be taken completely at face value.

Thank you very much Noelmac for posting this very helpful piece of information re the outstanding work required on site before Elche take over and habitation certificates can be issued.     I did make a posting yesterday asking about this as I feel it's the most important issue currently and could well determine whether owners are prepared to pay the higher sum for utilities.   It will certainly affect my decision and I will be happy to pay a higher monthly sum if I can be sure it's for a limited time.    Let's hope we soon see an end to all this frustration and uncertainty.  

The unfortunate thing is that we have had promise after promise after promise. The only time to believe something will be done is when it is done. Take the pylon and the cable. What was the date given last summer.....still waiting 

m2lou....remember,  we are still illegal. No committee has been ELECTED.  A community can not,  and as it has been pointed out on here by Julie anne and others,  should not be formed until after the coh has been received.  There has also been a suggestion about future charges being linked to the size of the property.  The proportions once again are stated in the deeds, and I would expect the flats to be less than the quads / villas simply because there are more properties to share the running costs of the pool linked to them.

m2 lou. i was at the meeting and yes you did here correctly. the electricity cable may be completed in two months but it was stated that it will be when building work is finished that h.c will be issued . im not sure if this means all the building work or each community . perhaps someone will have the answer to this.