Bad Debtors

Hi Max.
                           I have just read the bad debtors list,  and I was amazed that my apartment was on the list.   First I have paid my community fees straight from day one,  I have paid everything by direct debit as set up by the agents,  I have not been informed of any other payments required,  and thought that the amount I have been paying was more than what I thought it would have been,
                           Could someone please explain what exactly we are paying for, because I have never received any written explanation of the community fees. I do not have a store room, but that appears on the list. Why on earth does the garage have a separate billing from the main residential bill.  I just hope that I have read the list wrong, and that I do not owe anything, but if I do then that is the fault of the agents, and not mine, it appears that I we are constantly having extra money costs charged to us without any explanation.  I know you are not compiling the list but it appears under your name. I could have sent a private message but I think the question & answer needs to be debated.      Thanks Bevron.
                                
                                                                                                                                               

Hi last week end it said on our notice board there was 72,000 owing to the community and 22,000 was the developer so 50,000 or so was owed by owners this included apts not yet sold so this list is very very small  so everyone who is behind should be on this list not just the few so there are a lot of people now who can not vote bye irene/peter

I forgot to say if people have payed since last week you should make sure there names are of the list in each block bye irene/peter

With regards to the debtors list, I have contacted the administrators about this as my name appears on it (but as yet have not received a reply...typical!) Like Bevron says the administration are not informing anyone of amounts due and just taking various amounts out of peoples accounts (those that have set up direct debits) at will. I have not set up a direct debit and would rather pay once I know what I am paying for. However if the administrators do not send out invoices either paper or electronically how are we to know what amounts are being claimed. I have informed them that they should send out a 'factura' (invoice) & statements stating what the amounts are due for and for what period preferably every quarter (this should be the same for those paying by direct debit or by any other mehtod). My thinking have proved correct as the amount which the administrators have marked against my name differs to what I actually owe or should that be owed as I have now paid what I believe to be the correct amount. For my property in London I get invoiced every 6 months (well on the 5th month with 30 days to pay) stating the amounts what they are due for and for what period. I know this is Spain not London but surely if you are paying for something then you should receive an invoice?

Forgot to add to my previous post that additionally names should only be put on a list on a public domain once demands have been sent out and the debtor still refuses to pay! I do agree with the surcharge and legal action against those debtors that plainly refuse to pay.

The total amount of the community charge is based on the agreed budget. How this is divided is based on the “horizontal division” which apportions the charge based on the area of each property. It was clearly stated at the early meetings that the amounts for stores and garages had not been calculated and would be charged when they had been.  The apportionment may not seem to be fair (why is the charge for a store the same as a garage space for example?) but it is very difficult to challenge.

Our administrator is not very good at administration even by Spanish standards. They have been warned that if they don’t improve significantly they will loose our business. It would not surprise me if there are debtors listed who have paid and other not listed that should be. The biggest debtor is Arrohabitage but we also have quite a number of other apartments whose owners are avoiding paying for as long as they can. That said there are others who want to pay but have not been able to get answers to queries from GICS.

I won’t comment on any individual’s situation publicly but the best way to resolve issues is to ring GICS – they are very poor at answering e-mails. Max and I have both tried to help people when asked but we don’t get any better response than you do. The best thing seems to be to ring them (in the morning) 0034 952440207. I know some people say why should I bother if they can’t get it right and I understand but it is your community and it needs the money.

Even keeping the apportioned costs as already notified the amount the administrators are claiming is still incorrect. I tried phoning them yesterday but there was no reply.

On a general note (I worked with Bevron by PM to sort his situation out and indeed he was a few months behind) I would say that if you set up a direct debit you will see that you never pay more than you should and in case of a mistake it's easily corrected as you have 21 days to get it back from your bank. Should you discover it later you will still get it back as the administrator is just collecting the money on our communal behalf.

You don't get invoices; that may be the system in London but no so in Spain. There is no need for as an administrator is not considered a commercial company. You get a detailed personalized account sheet every once in a while (f.i now in the large envelope in everyone's mailbox) showing all your payments and the amounts due. If you wish so you can go to the office and you will get access to all the books. Every owner has that right.

The basic rule to remember is that all the money people withheld because they would like different invoicing systems, or don't trust the administrator we hired ourselves is that all that money can not be spend on important issues. This is bad for the community, bad for the resale value and and bad news for the neighbours who do pay.

Hi all.
                In reply to Max's last message,  When my solicitor signed for the property on my behalf, he made all the necessary direct debit payments to the resident community payment and others.  But during this time I did not receive any instruction on the amount to be paid or the dates on which to expect these deductions coming out of my account,. The first payment was not collected by the administrator, but the next payment was for two months which made the payments up to date..
                This was not several months behind, just one and not my fault... I was not intending a first to make this reply but needed  to explain what occurred so that others did not think I was a bad debtor.  The other payments for the fighting fund? came out without any prior warning and may have resulted in overdrawing, that was the complaint that before any additional money is taken from any persons account a short e-mail wouldn't go amiss. Again I apologise for having to reply, I just hope that everything settles down now and no further information of this type will have to be aired on these forums.
         
                                                                                                                                             Bevron.  

Yes it is true that the direct debit is backed by a guarantee from the bank and in theory this is fine but this is Spain and in practise you may well find it a lot more troublesome trying to get your funds back. Also yes if the 21 days expires you could go back to the administrators but they very very slow to respond to anything, totally inefficient. They have sent me 3 differing figures now and despite chasing them for the past 2 weeks they have done nothing! I agree that funds should not be held back simply because the administrators do not send out statements or invoices etc and we usually transfer the funds every quarter however I was simply making the point that If we are getting charged for something then a invoice or statement should be provided to show what we are getting charged for my case in point being some time ago when the administrators were taking irregular amounts from peoples accounts without warning, if statements were provided then people could check to see what the additional amounts are for or see if there is a genuine error and take necessary action instead sitting there scratching one's head!

I will refrain from comment on Bevron's post until he has reacted on my last PM. 

Although I have more trust in Spanish banks than RG I agree on most of his last comments. However you will have received your detailed personalized account sheet in your mailbox so at least you know what the administrator expected you to pay and what you actually paid. As the payments due are basically the same every month it's quite easy to check.

Don't you agree with the claims of the administrator? In my case and others I have seen the sheet is completely correct. There maybe reasons why people didn't pay like the 300E issue, but it's still a valid claim from our administrator.

Hi if people have refused to pay  the 300 euros for the set up fee to the community they should not be able to vote only the people with proof that they have paid this should be able to vote bye irene/peter

Hi,
    Having payed the 300€ for the setting up of the community in September 2007 on purchase (the funds were transfered from the developer, to the administration), having tried to rectify the position via e-mails and phone calls, had in the end to get my solicitor, to confirm they had been paid to the administration.
 What funds are in the hands of the administration for the setting up fee, with no acknowledged owner.
   Ken

Ken,
The administrator has advised the committee that all the unallocated 300€ amounts have now been identifed and credited to the correct accounts. I am not sure if this is right but as I understand it the community is missing 42 x 300€. There is clearly a substantial sum which has been retained illegally by the developer. If a resident is up to date with their monthly payments and can show they paid the 300€ initially to the developer in good faith I do not think they should be excluded from voting even though it will still appear as outstanding on their account..

Hi David,
                Whilst I appreciate your answer, infront of me is the statement dated 16 July 2008 which was in my letter box (Don Juan) last week, with a total 300€ deficit.
  Ken

Hi Ken,
I got a copy of the bank transfer to the community account from my solicitor and GICS then removed the amount from my account. Quite a number of people provided me with copies of either the cheque or bank transfer. I presented these to GICS and these were allocated as well. I don't know what evidence you have of the funds being transfered to the community account by the developer but if you want please feel free to send me an e-mail about it.